MB update

[Sdel]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Yes, and if the jury had been convinced by the prosecution’s psych experts that he shot LK while NOT in a delusional state, he’d be in prison instead of a psychiatrist institution right now.

Yes, he was found to be in a state of delusion….one that was brought on by extreme fear. The state psych witness confirmed for the jury it was right for them to accept Simring’s conclusions that the delusions were brought on by LK’s actions.

Just because a jury is charged to find things a certain way doesn’t mean they always do. That is the basis for jury nullification. One way is for a jury to completely disregard jury instructions on how to find a verdict and do their own thing. For all you know, they thought he was straight up NG on all charges but felt obligated to ensure he got mental health treatment for the damage LK did to him and that is why they came up with NGRI.

[Angela_Freda]

I really hope 48Hours gets to talk yo some jurors.
I would really lime to hear their take on all of it, and I do mean ALL.

[MHM]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@chestnutmarebeware

People are waaaay more afraid of geese than any dog, and they can’t be bribed with treaties by intruders. The US Army used (maybe still does) geese to patrol bases in Germany because they worked so much better than dogs.

That’s super fascinating!

I know the Navy has used other animals to guard ships in port. Sea mammals.

Personally, though I love dogs, I know my limitations as an owner, when it comes to providing super consistent discipline and being the sort of “pack leader” that certain breeds require to be their best selves. Plus, I have a family and children, and my kid’s friends coming and going… and I worry that certain breeds could get into trouble when placed in a situation like this.

So we have a wonderful older Labrador.

I have been obsessed with adding a flock of guineas to my farm though. I’ve got a great set up for it, would love the tick management, and they are an effective means of announcing when any stranger comes on property. We’ve just had too many projects going on the last few years. Maybe next year I will finally do it

I wonder if MBs neighborhood in Florida would allow him to add a flock of guineas to his property. Some neighborhoods have rules against them.

I’ve always had the feeling that Loxahatchee is a bit of a free-for-all regarding codes and things. But I don’t know that for an actual fact. That’s just my impression from seeing different properties there over the years. Lol.

[ekat]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I accept your clarification.

The dangerous conduct that occurred in August 2019 occurred because he was in a delusional state and had access to a gun. While the continuing presence of delusional thinking, is not, in itself, a reason to keep him institutionalized, I think evidence that he is still delusional would indicate that he is likely to be a danger to others, including the person be shot while in a delusional state, compared to a situation in which he no longer harbors delusions.

Thank you.

I do, however, disagree with you entirely on what you think. Evidence of any mental illness is not an indicator of the potential for danger to the level NJ requires. Evidence of delusional disorder is absolutely not an indication of a substantial risk of dangerous behavior in the reasonably foreseeable future.

Furthermore, NJ also carved out this very specification exception, which I have posted before:

“ A defendant may be dangerous in only certain types of situations or in connection with relationships with certain individuals. An evaluation of dangerousness in such cases must take into account the likelihood that defendant will be exposed to such situations or come into contact with such individuals”.

NJ caselaw has held that with proper safeguards in place, that defendant above can still be released.

[MHM]

Also, regarding different breeds of dogs for protection. I remember we had an Airedale when I was a kid. She seemed like a very sweet dog to me, but I do believe she had a little tendency to “protect” the house from the mailman. I don’t think he appreciated that trait very much.

[ekat]

@MHM

I think I’ve said it before, but my two all time favorite Star Trek episodes were the tribbles episode and the one with Joan Collins on earth in the 1930s. They really worked the comedy/tragedy drama masks with that combination

Ok, now I have to go see if I can find the Joan Collins one because I don’t remember that nearly as well as the tribbles. My dad was such a Trekkie that we had a dog named Captain Kirk.

[eggbutt]

GORGEOUS GSD!! Wow!

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

There were a number of statements, inferences and “logic” that were incorrectly attributed to me in the post that I wished to clarify.

That’s fair enough. Clarify away.

But… what about horses and dogs? Care to share? It’s more pleasant than constant arguing.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom I have clarified. It was a long post.

You, in particular, have been responding to my posts without ridicule or blatant disrespect, which I appreciate. Well, mostly. Posting “They’re back” is a tad disrespectful, but extremely mild compared to what generally goes on here.

But you’re one of the very few that I can say that about. So no, I don’t care to share any personal information beyond what I’ve already shared.

[Unfforgettable]

@CurrentlyHorseless

The idea that he shot LK in self-defense? Delusion!

You were there?

If he is going to get beyond his delusions, I think he needs to acknowledge, to himself and his closest supporters, at a minimum, that he understands that he shot and nearly killed someone.

Hard to have delusions when you have no memory of what happened.

The crucial issue is whether MB is sane enough to admit to himself that, (beyond a reasonable doubt), the determination of the jury was that be shot and nearly killed someone.

That isn’t a crucial issue at all and has zero bearing on anything. As he has no memory of the incident, all he has to go on is what he’s been told.

[MHM]

@ekat

@MHM

I think I’ve said it before, but my two all time favorite Star Trek episodes were the tribbles episode and the one with Joan Collins on earth in the 1930s. They really worked the comedy/tragedy drama masks with that combination

Ok, now I have to go see if I can find the Joan Collins one because I don’t remember that nearly as well as the tribbles. My dad was such a Trekkie that we had a dog named Captain Kirk.

It’s a pretty darn solid piece of drama, even with Captain Kirk in the picture. And a precursor to decades and decades of sci fi issues involving time travel.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@ekat

@CurrentlyHorseless

I accept your clarification.

The dangerous conduct that occurred in August 2019 occurred because he was in a delusional state and had access to a gun. While the continuing presence of delusional thinking, is not, in itself, a reason to keep him institutionalized, I think evidence that he is still delusional would indicate that he is likely to be a danger to others, including the person be shot while in a delusional state, compared to a situation in which he no longer harbors delusions.

Thank you.

I do, however, disagree with you entirely on what you think. Evidence of any mental illness is not an indicator of the potential for danger to the level NJ requires. Evidence of delusional disorder is absolutely not an indication of a substantial risk of dangerous behavior in the reasonably foreseeable future.

Furthermore, NJ also carved out this very specification exception, which I have posted before:

“ A defendant may be dangerous in only certain types of situations or in connection with relationships with certain individuals. An evaluation of dangerousness in such cases must take into account the likelihood that defendant will be exposed to such situations or come into contact with such individuals”.

NJ caselaw has held that with proper safeguards in place, that defendant above can still be released.

OK. With regard to the quoted paragraph, if they were to determine that he was “only” a danger to the person he he received the NGRI for shooting, I’d be flabbergasted if they released him while still delusional.

I still think a true supporter of MB would hope he recovers from his delusions, rather than hope he will be released despite continued delusional thinking.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Virginia_Horse_Mom I have clarified. It was a long post.

You, in particular, have been responding to my posts without ridicule or blatant disrespect, which I appreciate. Well, mostly. Posting “They’re back” is a tad disrespectful, but extremely mild compared to what generally goes on here.

But you’re one of the very few that I can say that about. So no, I don’t care to share any personal information beyond what I’ve already shared

Ok.

As to my joke - I’m an equal opportunity warped comedian. After all… I compared eggbutt to Susan Atkins.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Who knew there were devoted Trekkies on the COTH forums?

This I did not anticipate.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Unfforgettable

@CurrentlyHorseless

The idea that he shot LK in self-defense? Delusion!

You were there?

If he is going to get beyond his delusions, I think he needs to acknowledge, to himself and his closest supporters, at a minimum, that he understands that he shot and nearly killed someone.

Hard to have delusions when you have no memory of what happened.

The crucial issue is whether MB is sane enough to admit to himself that, (beyond a reasonable doubt), the determination of the jury was that be shot and nearly killed someone.

That isn’t a crucial issue at all and has zero bearing on anything. As he has no memory of the incident, all he has to go on is what he’s been told.

No, I wasn’t there. Neither was the jury.

There is no absolute certainty as to what happened.

The best anyone, including MB, has to go on is the determination of the jury as fact finders. Their finding was that, beyond a reasonable doubt, he shot her.

If he has no memory of the “incident”, it is a continuing delusion to maintain that since he doesn’t remember it, it didn’t happen. It is a delusion to think that because there is no absolute certainty regarding exactly what happened, it didn’t happen.

[MHM]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Who knew there were devoted Trekkies on the COTH forums?

This I did not anticipate.

I don’t know if I would call myself a full fledged Trekkie. But I did watch the original series in reruns as a kid, and I will still stop and watch those two episodes to this day if I stumble across them on tv. Lol.

[Unfforgettable]

@CurrentlyHorseless

OK. With regard to the quoted paragraph, if they were to determine that he was “only” a danger to the person he he received the NGRI for shooting, I’d be flabbergasted if they released him while still delusional.

I still think a true supporter of MB would hope he recovers from his delusions, rather than hope he will be released despite continued delusional thinking.

To what delusions are you referring? How would you possibly know he is currently delusional?

If you’re referring to the K plan to destroy him and thinking he was/is delusional to have believed it even after they have admitted such plan in court, I’d say the delusions are yours.

And if you’re waiting for some public apology from MB, I’d say that’s pretty delusional too.

[ekat]

@CurrentlyHorseless

OK. With regard to the quoted paragraph, if they were to determine that he was “only” a danger to the person he he received the NGRI for shooting, I’d be flabbergasted if they released him while still delusional.

Well, apparently the NJ Supreme Court has held that release is possible under those circumstances.

@CurrentlyHorseless

I still think a true supporter of MB would hope he recovers from his delusions, rather than hope he will be released despite continued delusional thinking.

At this point, there is zero evidence that MB has continued delusional thinking. Zero. None of us are privy to his medical health records.

You know, it is entirely possible, that people just want him to be able to heal in a situation far more conducive to healing than an overcrowded, underfunded State institution. While I believe that the staff at AK does their best, the best for MB just may not be inside those walls.

Maybe, just maybe, a true supporter of MB firmly believes in NJ’s law that says commitment is not ever to be punitive. And maybe they believe that outside AK, he’ll have access to medical treatment, horses, art supplies, unrestricted access to family and loved ones and a myriad of other things that can help the healing process. So, maybe they’re just hoping that, delusional disorder or not, the psychiatrist determines he’s not, in fact, a danger to himself or the public, and can be released so he can go about getting on with healing.

[MHM]

@Unfforgettable

And if you’re waiting for some public apology from MB, I’d say that’s pretty delusional too.

I would say there have certainly been plenty of delusions on display in these threads over the years.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Unfforgettable

@CurrentlyHorseless

OK. With regard to the quoted paragraph, if they were to determine that he was “only” a danger to the person he he received the NGRI for shooting, I’d be flabbergasted if they released him while still delusional.

I still think a true supporter of MB would hope he recovers from his delusions, rather than hope he will be released despite continued delusional thinking.

To what delusions are you referring? How would you possibly know he is currently delusional?

If you’re referring to the K plan to destroy him and thinking he was/is delusional to have believed it even after they have admitted such plan in court, I’d say the delusions are yours.

And if you’re waiting for some public apology from MB, I’d say that’s pretty delusional too.

I have not “called for”, nor do I expect, a “public apology” from MB. I’ve said that I think recovering from his delusional thinking requires him to admit to himself that be shot her.

Maybe he is planning to relitigate the issue of whether he shot her in civil court. The problem there is that the jury in the civil trial has a lower bar - preponderance of the evidence- than the jury in the criminal case.

[smoofox]

@ekat

@MHM

I think I’ve said it before, but my two all time favorite Star Trek episodes were the tribbles episode and the one with Joan Collins on earth in the 1930s. They really worked the comedy/tragedy drama masks with that combination

Ok, now I have to go see if I can find the Joan Collins one because I don’t remember that nearly as well as the tribbles. My dad was such a Trekkie that we had a dog named Captain Kirk.

The Joan Collins one is called “City on the Edge of Forever” - I think it won some kind of award?
It is still my favorite TOS episode. Tribbles are second - and the episode of Deep Space Nine about Tribbles is pretty good as well. Yes, I am a Trekkie/Trekker. My recent knee surgery enabled me to binge on all of the more recent Star Trek offerings - Discovery and Strange New Worlds…

As far as guard dogs go - may I recommend a fierce border terrier? Well, fierce if you are a rat - then you would not stand a chance. Presenting the Rat Terminator… be afraid - be very afraid!