MB update

[ekat]

@Knights_Mom

The statutes in my state don’t use the term grave. The use protracted injury which is an injury which has long lasting effects. At least to my memory. There’s injury and serious injury also as terms.

NJ uses serious injury. From their form jury instructions, that is defined as:

1. Permanent loss of bodily function, and/or
2. Permanent disfigurement or dismemberment

Disfigurement is further defined:

Disfigurement

1. The scarring, indentation and/or blemishes [here insert an appropriate description of the scar, indentation or blemish] must be an objectively significant disfigurement.
2. It must be more than a trifling mark discoverable on close inspection and must detract from the appearance of the person.
3. The disfigurement must be visible and not insubstantial. To summarize, to recover for pain and suffering the plaintiff must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he/she sustained . . . (choose appropriate category)
   a permanent loss of a bodily function OR
   a permanent disfigurement that is substantial OR a dismemberment

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

ETA: apparently it was empty, not jammed. But RG thought it was jammed.

And if RG really is any sort of Marine, he would have had hand to hand combat training. He would have received some in boot camp, and more later. So he got some training, regardless of when/why his association with the US Marine Corps terminated.

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

Why then did RG proceed to beat in MBs head AFTER all that? A reverse chokehold is a known technique, that is widely considered one of the most effective ways of subduing an opponent in a hand to hand combat situation. They apparently don’t teach Marines to beat peoples heads into concrete AFTER getting someone in a reverse chokehold. That’s just a criminal street fighting type of move.

Regardless… PERHAPS RG was justified in terms of beating MBs head into the concrete after having administered the reverse chokehold and gotten MB on the ground… after all … LK had been shot.

But wasn’t the gun jammed at that point?

ETA: Again, apparently the clip was empty, not jammed… but… RG thought it was jammed.

And again, how does self defense work in NJ? If RG had MB in a reverse chokehol, and subdued on the ground… is it really still self defense if he then proceeds tp beat MBs head against the concrete and kill him?

I’m not so sure about that.

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

And again, how does self defense work in NJ?

As much force as is necessary to end the threat. So, continued beating of a subdued guy with a broken arm, bleeding profusely might just cross that line

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

I don’t think it was jammed. I think it was just empty. But RG thought it was jammed, therefore, decided the gun wasn’t a threat.

(Don’t get me started on the mystery magazine again… )

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ekat

Disfigurement

1. The scarring, indentation and/or blemishes [here insert an appropriate description of the scar, indentation or blemish] must be an objectively significant disfigurement.
2. It must be more than a trifling mark discoverable on close inspection and must detract from the appearance of the person.
3. The disfigurement must be visible and not insubstantial. To summarize, to recover for pain and suffering the plaintiff must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he/she sustained . . . (choose appropriate category)
   a permanent loss of a bodily function OR
   a permanent disfigurement that is substantial OR a dismemberment

LK made a big issue of her scars on her torso and near her breast area that were a result of what she went through.

But… many people have significant scarring in these areas from heart surgeries, and breast cancer related treatments (lumpectomy and mastectomy). 1 in 8 women will get breast cancer in their lifetimes - it’s ubiquitous.

Scars on the chest and torso are not visible unless one is in a bathing suit or revealing blouse. And even then, there are many options.

Sooooo… would her scars be considered truly “disfiguring” under the NJ legal definition?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Ahhhhh. So an empty magazine, but not a jammed gun.

Thanks for clarifying and correcting

[ekat]

All good points for that jury of 6 to consider.

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Ahhhhh. So an empty magazine, but not a jammed gun.

Thanks for clarifying and correcting

You’re welcome. On that gun, when the magazine is empty, the slide stays open. So it could appear as jammed. And RG testified he thought so, which goes to his state of mind as to the perception of the threat. If he thinks the gun is useless, where does that fit into self-defense, and only using enough force to stop the threat?

That’s if you buy any version of the story LK, RG and ED have tried to sell over the last three years.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@LilRanger

@trubandloki

I often wonder if there was a reason for that beyond their continual habit of ignoring his existence until it fits some need they have.

I’m not sure RG could be included in the case without his own attorney representing him, as he’s a separate party, and at some point, RG and LK may have different decisions about the direction of the case, which would be a huge conflict for the attorney representing them.

I get why the family of LK might not want to shell out for someone who wasn’t shot or shot at, and who may actually be responsible for injuries and damages to MB. I don’t know why LK, with her unlimited funds, wouldn’t want to give RG the money to get a lawyer… Since she continues to claim he was a victim too.

MB is countersuing LK in the suit, as well as defending against her suit.

If RG were a plaintiff, along with LK, then MB could counter sue RG. I sincerely doubt MB would have a credible case against RG for “the beating” since everyone other than a few posters here will understand that in all likelihood RG was acting in self defense. However, to the extent that MB has a cause of action against RG (for the “grand plot”) it seems he can’t pursue it within this suit since RG is not a plaintiff.

I’m guessing that’s the reason RG is not a plaintiff. He wasn’t shot and his injuries incurred subduing MB were not serious enough to make it worthwhile to be exposed to a countersuit.

[Knights_Mom]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

ETA: apparently it was empty, not jammed. But RG thought it was jammed.

And if RG really is any sort of Marine, he would have had hand to hand combat training. He would have received some in boot camp, and more later. So he got some training, regardless of when/why his association with the US Marine Corps terminated.

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

Why then did RG proceed to beat in MBs head AFTER all that? A reverse chokehold is a known technique, that is widely considered one of the most effective ways of subduing an opponent in a hand to hand combat situation. They apparently don’t teach Marines to beat peoples heads into concrete AFTER getting someone in a reverse chokehold. That’s just a criminal street fighting type of move.

Regardless… PERHAPS RG was justified in terms of beating MBs head into the concrete after having administered the reverse chokehold and gotten MB on the ground… after all … LK had been shot.

But wasn’t the gun jammed at that point?

ETA: Again, apparently the clip was empty, not jammed… but… RG thought it was jammed.

And again, how does self defense work in NJ? If RG had MB in a reverse chokehol, and subdued on the ground… is it really still self defense if he then proceeds tp beat MBs head against the concrete and kill him?

I’m not so sure about that.

I say he was already disoriented when put into a choke hold. Maybe he had gotten repeatedly bashed in the head with a phone or something.

[ekat]

@Knights_Mom

I say he was already disoriented when put into a choke hold. Maybe ge had gotten repeatedly bashed in the head with a phone or something.

Plus those dog puncture wounds. That would be disorienting enough on their own without the cell phone head bashing.

[Sdel]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

This would have ended the threat. So, allowing the dog to bite MB, breaking his arm, and doing whatever caused the black eyes and considerable head trauma were all unnecessary force by RG. And somehow I think pyhsics is stretched by the idea that RG broke MB’s dominant hand while it was pinned underneath him (and the gun just lying there next to his hand is odd too). I would think that arm would have had to have been broken before the position that the officer found them in could be obtained.

If the story is that RG punched and then tackled MB and put MB unconscious with a choke hold….why didn’t RG simply remove the gun from MB after he was unconscious? There was a serious lack of detail on how the gun got underneath MB.

[enjoytheride]

Haven’t we rehashed this over and over and over? We have LK and RGs testimony, we don’t have MBs since he had amnesia. Can we just move on?

[Knights_Mom]

@Sdel

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

This would have ended the threat. So, allowing the dog to bite MB, breaking his arm, and doing whatever caused the black eyes and considerable head trauma were all unnecessary force by RG. And somehow I think pyhsics is stretched by the idea that RG broke MB’s dominant hand while it was pinned underneath him (and the gun just lying there next to his hand is odd too). I would think that arm would have had to have been broken before the position that the officer found them in could be obtained.

If the story is that RG punched and then tackled MB and put MB unconscious with a choke hold….why didn’t RG simply remove the gun from MB after he was unconscious? There was a serious lack of detail on how the gun got underneath MB.

Clearly the version given by the tenants was not factual in multiple ways.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@DownYonder

@BigMama1

False. No LEO witnessed RG stop MB from shooting, or witnessed him subdue MB. That all happened before police arrived on the scene to find RG on top of a badly beaten MB.

We don’t know what happened before police arrived on the scene and don’t know if RG would have killed MB had police arrived a few minutes later. All we know is what happened once police arrived.

I would not have been surprised if, except for the police arriving when they did, RG would have continued the beating until MB was either dead or severely brain-damaged to the point he appeared dead. I still think RG was insanely jealous of MB and resentful of him because MB was everything he (RG) was not - a big guy, strong and athletic, a talented horse trainer, an Olympian, a self-made man who had built a very successful business, financially successful, well-liked by his clients and others, well-respected within his profession and the community at large, with no criminal record, etc. And not a drug addict with a criminal record, nor a grifter nor a paid “man-servant” to a drug addict. I think RG’s rage about his own lot in life compared to MB might have overwhelmed him to the point that he would have tried to kill MB.

Thank God the police arrived when they did.

I consider this post to be a nasty, unfair, off topic comment on RG.

I would not have made this post, if several posters had not demanded I provide my opinion on whether I think RG is being nastily bashed on these threads along with LK.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Sdel

the story is that RG punched and then tackled MB and put MB unconscious with a choke hold….why didn’t RG simply remove the gun from MB after he was unconscious? There was a serious lack of detail on how the gun got underneath MB.

According to my husband (retired military) RG would have been trained in the Marine Corps to prioritize disarming his opponent in a hand to hand situation…

So if we BELIEVE RGs testimony, and the fact that he was in the Marines, maybe RG got MB in the reverse chokehold, at which point MB briefly passed out… and then RG immediately went to disarm him, breaking MBs dominant arm in the process. And then… what… he beat MBs head in? Well at that point, we are no longer talking self defense. At that point it’s aggravated assault.

An alternative theory is that MBs head was beaten in BEFORE the shooting happened, running around, reverse chokehold, and broken arm. And that’s another problematic situation to ponder…

I can understand why the prosecutors wouldn’t have pursued charging RG with Agg assault, given that LK was seriously shot, and they were pursuing attempted murder in her case. But… that doesn’t mean a case couldn’t have been made, or that we can’t look at the situation and think about it all, and the sequence in which key things causing demonstrable physical injuries happened…

[SillyHorse]

@enjoytheride

Haven’t we rehashed this over and over and over? We have LK and RGs testimony, we don’t have MBs since he had amnesia. Can we just move on?

Apparently, and unfortunately, not.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@ekat

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

I don’t think it was jammed. I think it was just empty. But RG thought it was jammed, therefore, decided the gun wasn’t a threat.

(Don’t get me started on the mystery magazine again… )

The gun wasn’t a threat?

MB had a second magazine in his pocket. RG would not know for a fact that he had the second magazine, and he wouldn’t know for a fact that he didn’t.

[ekat]

I’m not going to pretend I speak for anyone but me, but here’s why these details are important to me, going forward.

Presumably, at some point, MB is going to get his NJ statutorily required Krol assessment, where they try to determine if he is PRESENTLY a a danger to himself, or the public.

When you consider the facts that lead him to this point, you have to (and AK has all the discovery) consider 19,000+ social media posts, including threats. Texts. Illegal hidden recordings and private conversations being broadcast on the internet. Ninjas. Disruption to your barn and horses late at night. Clients working on leaving due to the disruptions. Building inspectors. False CPS reports.

Without those stressors, can MB function in society safely? I hope the docs determine he can.

That’s my first, more immediate concern.

Second, when you consider the civil suit, all those things come into play again. LK sued him for personal injury causing loss of wages (?), pain and suffering, etc.

In MB’s answer, he asserts he was not competent, his lack of capacity was caused by her, and he also asserts self-defense. How do those work against her claim?

He also has a counter-claim that again calls LK’s actions into question.

Meanwhile, as of last night, LK was calling him a murderer on the World Wide Web. It’s puzzling, to say the very least and merits discussion in light of the civil suit.

[ekat]

@CurrentlyHorseless

The gun wasn’t a threat?

RG Himself testified, under oath, that the gun wasn’t a threat, because he thought it was jammed.