MB update

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@SillyHorse

@enjoytheride

Haven’t we rehashed this over and over and over? We have LK and RGs testimony, we don’t have MBs since he had amnesia. Can we just move on?

Apparently, and unfortunately, not.

Okay okay okay. Got it.

I just think it’s a bit much to call the guy a hero.

Going forward… as I have said multiple times (probably a few too many), I think RGs testimony is going to pose a BIG challenge during his deposition.

We will have to wait and see what happens this fall as attorneys try to schedule depositions.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

ETA: apparently it was empty, not jammed. But RG thought it was jammed.

And if RG really is any sort of Marine, he would have had hand to hand combat training. He would have received some in boot camp, and more later. So he got some training, regardless of when/why his association with the US Marine Corps terminated.

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

Why then did RG proceed to beat in MBs head AFTER all that? A reverse chokehold is a known technique, that is widely considered one of the most effective ways of subduing an opponent in a hand to hand combat situation. They apparently don’t teach Marines to beat peoples heads into concrete AFTER getting someone in a reverse chokehold. That’s just a criminal street fighting type of move.

Regardless… PERHAPS RG was justified in terms of beating MBs head into the concrete after having administered the reverse chokehold and gotten MB on the ground… after all … LK had been shot.

But wasn’t the gun jammed at that point?

ETA: Again, apparently the clip was empty, not jammed… but… RG thought it was jammed.

And again, how does self defense work in NJ? If RG had MB in a reverse chokehol, and subdued on the ground… is it really still self defense if he then proceeds tp beat MBs head against the concrete and kill him?

I’m not so sure about that.

I thought that RG put MB into the chokehold on the raised patio, and both of them then fell off the patio onto whatever was below. Gravel? More concrete?

Do you begrudge RG a certain amount of rage at seeing his girlfriend shot and likely dying when he (heroically) moves to subdue a shooter?

[Sdel]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

So if we BELIEVE RGs testimony, and the fact that he was in the Marines, maybe RG got MB in the reverse chokehold, at which point MB briefly passed out… and then RG immediately went to disarm him, breaking MBs dominant arm in the process. And then… what… he beat MBs head in? Well at that point, we are no longer talking self defense. At that point it’s aggravated assault.

So, when does he break his hand? RG “dodged a bullet”, punched MB (which shouldn’t cause a broken hand), tackled him, and put him in a reverse choke hold rendering him unconcious. That sounds like RG fairly dominated the fight. He didn’t testify to significant resistance from MB that would cause a broken hand. And then he said he broke MB’s arm trying to get the gun out from underneath him….again, a prone person on their stomach is in a fairly vulnerable position. It is purely defensive, not offensive, so MB wasn’t in a position to break the hand there either. If RG’s had was already broken at this point, would he have the leverage to break MB’s arm, from a position that gives him little leverage (arm underneath MB) and a broken dominant hand?

I’d have though RG would have wanted to play up that broken hand to show what hero battle scars he now has….

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@ekat

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

I don’t think it was jammed. I think it was just empty. But RG thought it was jammed, therefore, decided the gun wasn’t a threat.

(Don’t get me started on the mystery magazine again… )

The gun wasn’t a threat?

MB had a second magazine in his pocket. RG would not know for a fact that he had the second magazine, and he wouldn’t know for a fact that he didn’t.

There is evidence there was nothing in the pocket.

[cutter99]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

ETA: apparently it was empty, not jammed. But RG thought it was jammed.

And if RG really is any sort of Marine, he would have had hand to hand combat training. He would have received some in boot camp, and more later. So he got some training, regardless of when/why his association with the US Marine Corps terminated.

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

Why then did RG proceed to beat in MBs head AFTER all that? A reverse chokehold is a known technique, that is widely considered one of the most effective ways of subduing an opponent in a hand to hand combat situation. They apparently don’t teach Marines to beat peoples heads into concrete AFTER getting someone in a reverse chokehold. That’s just a criminal street fighting type of move.

Regardless… PERHAPS RG was justified in terms of beating MBs head into the concrete after having administered the reverse chokehold and gotten MB on the ground… after all … LK had been shot.

But wasn’t the gun jammed at that point?

ETA: Again, apparently the clip was empty, not jammed… but… RG thought it was jammed.

And again, how does self defense work in NJ? If RG had MB in a reverse chokehol, and subdued on the ground… is it really still self defense if he then proceeds tp beat MBs head against the concrete and kill him?

I’m not so sure about that.

This post points out to me the absurdity that people believe RG is such a hero. Wasn’t RG’s height testified to as bring about 5’9” or less?

Yet he somehow got behind an “active shooter”, as certain posters would like us to believe, who was 6’3” and very fit. And RG was able to get this much taller man, 6” taller, in a reverse choke hold and choke him out while standing?

Yeah, my money is on the fact it did not happen this way, and MB was already on the ground, dog bitten and beat about the head, with a severely damaged arm and head injury, until the “hero” put him in a chokehold.

It is amusing to me that certain posters, who are trying to muddy the water with their own versions of events, do nothing but drive the point home that there is so much more to this story and that the true victim of that day is Michael Barisone!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

The gun wasn’t a threat?

MB had a second magazine in his pocket. RG would not know for a fact that he had the second magazine, and he wouldn’t know for a fact that he didn’t.

There is evidence there was nothing in the pocket.

Yeah. I missed this whole part of the trial. Did one of the police officers testify to finding a magazine in MBs pocket when they arrived on the scene?

[DownYonder]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I consider this post to be a nasty, unfair, off topic comment on RG.

You say nasty, others may say insightful.

You know - tom-ay-to or tom-ah-to.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

As far as RGs broken hand goes… IF we believe his testimony, it could have happened right when he first punched MB.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

ETA: apparently it was empty, not jammed. But RG thought it was jammed.

And if RG really is any sort of Marine, he would have had hand to hand combat training. He would have received some in boot camp, and more later. So he got some training, regardless of when/why his association with the US Marine Corps terminated.

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

Why then did RG proceed to beat in MBs head AFTER all that? A reverse chokehold is a known technique, that is widely considered one of the most effective ways of subduing an opponent in a hand to hand combat situation. They apparently don’t teach Marines to beat peoples heads into concrete AFTER getting someone in a reverse chokehold. That’s just a criminal street fighting type of move.

Regardless… PERHAPS RG was justified in terms of beating MBs head into the concrete after having administered the reverse chokehold and gotten MB on the ground… after all … LK had been shot.

But wasn’t the gun jammed at that point?

ETA: Again, apparently the clip was empty, not jammed… but… RG thought it was jammed.

And again, how does self defense work in NJ? If RG had MB in a reverse chokehol, and subdued on the ground… is it really still self defense if he then proceeds tp beat MBs head against the concrete and kill him?

I’m not so sure about that.

I thought that RG put MB into the chokehold on the raised patio, and both of them then fell off the patio onto whatever was below. Gravel? More concrete?

Do you begrudge RG a certain amount of rage at seeing his girlfriend shot and likely dying when he (heroically) moves to subdue a shooter?

I begrudge a person like RG who participates in a possible attempted murder of MB because it is completely feasible MB was jumped first, a scenario which must be presented in light of MBs initial self defense assertion at the criminal trial.

If the jury believes this scenario the civil plaintiff will not prevail but the counterclaim will.

[ekat]

@CurrentlyHorseless

I thought that RG put MB into the chokehold on the raised patio, and both of them then fell off the patio onto whatever was below. Gravel? More concrete?

That depends on which version of their stories you believe.

@CurrentlyHorseless

Do you begrudge RG a certain amount of rage at seeing his girlfriend shot and likely dying when he (heroically) moves to subdue a shooter?

Considering they both testified that he didn’t know she was shot, much less likely dying, and he was yelling at her to get the dog in that 911 call, I’d question your source of his rage.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

The gun wasn’t a threat?

MB had a second magazine in his pocket. RG would not know for a fact that he had the second magazine, and he wouldn’t know for a fact that he didn’t.

There is evidence there was nothing in the pocket.

Yeah. I missed this whole part of the trial. Did one of the police officers testify to finding a magazine in MBs pocket when they arrived on the scene?

Yes, Hut-Ho posted the testimony a bit up thread. The testimony was that a magazine was taken from MBs pocket, and put in one of the police cars.

[Knights_Mom]

@ekat

@CurrentlyHorseless

I thought that RG put MB into the chokehold on the raised patio, and both of them then fell off the patio onto whatever was below. Gravel? More concrete?

That depends on which version of their stories you believe.

@CurrentlyHorseless

Do you begrudge RG a certain amount of rage at seeing his girlfriend shot and likely dying when he (heroically) moves to subdue a shooter?

Considering they both testified that he didn’t know she was shot, much less likely dying, and he was yelling at her to get the dog in that 911 call, I’d question your source of his rage.

This series of events speaks to unintentional discharge of the firearm.

[eggbutt]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@hut-ho78

Well it didn’t take y’all long to get back to bashing LK. “Oh it’s all about the trial and MB.” Really? Get back to the trial then.

I’m one of the people who have referred to RG as a hero in the moment he stopped MB. MB had a magazine with 9 more rounds in his pocket and could have changed that magazine in seconds. RG tackled a man much larger than himself and held him until the arrival of LE. He could have killed him but he did not. He restrained himself. At that time MB was an active shooter. No one knows how many people an active shooter will shoot if not stopped. Seeker1 also called RG a hero and said he saved her daughter. Whatever else RG does or doesn’t do, in that moment, he stepped up, maybe just to save his own skin but he saved more than himself.

I don’t follow LK on other social media. I don’t follow her at all. I have followed the threads on the shooting here from the first. I do remember she testified she called SS about bullying and SS asked if there were minors present. She has denied calling CPS.

I also think, and have stated, that RG was a hero for stopping an active shooter at the risk of his own life.

I think MB and his supporters should be grateful that RG interceded as he did to subdue MB without using lethal force. RG prevented MB from pumping more bullets into LK. In his delusional state, MB might have killed himself if he had not been subdued by RG.

Even if MB did not aim a bullet at RGs head, RG had a right to act in self defense given that LK had been shot.

I think it’s ridiculous the way people whine about the supposed travesty of MB being “badly beaten” by RG. RG had every right to act in self defense, and, IMHO saved MB as well as LK and himself.

Suppose MB had reloaded and killed both LK and RG? Would you want to have seen him tried for two counts of murder? Even if he was found NGRI on two counts of murder, wouldn’t knowing that you killed two people be a burden for the rest of your life?

Suppose MB had reloaded and killed both RG and LK, then shot himself? That’s definitely possible, given that we’re talking about a legally insane person with a gun, acting out in desperation.

Absolutely 1000000% amazingly wrong.

Please, you & HH take your ideas about RG’s sainthood and start your own thread. Again, what does your post have to do with the upcoming Krol hearing or MB’s condition?

I will admit I stopped reading your fairy tale after about the 3rd sentence of denial after I became nauseous.

Really, go start another thread about alternate Kanarek theories and gush your high praises and leave this thread in peace. You will get no support here except from your two buddies.

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

The gun wasn’t a threat?

MB had a second magazine in his pocket. RG would not know for a fact that he had the second magazine, and he wouldn’t know for a fact that he didn’t.

There is evidence there was nothing in the pocket.

Yeah. I missed this whole part of the trial. Did one of the police officers testify to finding a magazine in MBs pocket when they arrived on the scene?

Yes, Hut-Ho posted the testimony a bit up thread. The testimony was that a magazine was taken from MBs pocket, and put in one of the police cars.

You neglect discrepancies in testimony.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Yes, Hut-Ho posted the testimony a bit up thread. The testimony was that a magazine was taken from MBs pocket, and put in one of the police cars.

Ok.

My memory, admitted, is a muddled mess sometimes.

[cutter99]

@Sdel

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

So if we BELIEVE RGs testimony, and the fact that he was in the Marines, maybe RG got MB in the reverse chokehold, at which point MB briefly passed out… and then RG immediately went to disarm him, breaking MBs dominant arm in the process. And then… what… he beat MBs head in? Well at that point, we are no longer talking self defense. At that point it’s aggravated assault.

So, when does he break his hand? RG “dodged a bullet”, punched MB (which shouldn’t cause a broken hand), tackled him, and put him in a reverse choke hold rendering him unconcious. That sounds like RG fairly dominated the fight. He didn’t testify to significant resistance from MB that would cause a broken hand. And then he said he broke MB’s arm trying to get the gun out from underneath him….again, a prone person on their stomach is in a fairly vulnerable position. It is purely defensive, not offensive, so MB wasn’t in a position to break the hand there either. If RG’s had was already broken at this point, would he have the leverage to break MB’s arm, from a position that gives him little leverage (arm underneath MB) and a broken dominant hand?

I’d have though RG would have wanted to play up that broken hand to show what hero battle scars he now has….

Have we given any thought or credence to idea that RG attended and graduated from “The Lauren Kanarek School of Barefoot Ninja Training”???

Maybe he was a star A+ pupil! Maybe he was valedictorian of his class!!!

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Ok.

My memory, admitted, is a muddled mess sometimes.

For clarification, the first officer on the scene, the one that patted him down and put him in cuffs, did not, in fact, find a magazine in the pocket of his dog bitten shorts.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Knights_Mom

I begrudge a person like RG who participates in a possible attempted murder of MB because it is completely feasible MB was jumped first, a scenario which must be presented in light of MBs initial self defense assertion at the criminal trial.

If the jury believes this scenario the civil plaintiff will not prevail but the counterclaim will.

Another thing.

Can prior arrest and conviction records be brought into evidence during a civil trial?

Like, if RG or MB had a demonstrated prior history of assault … isn’t that fair game to bring up during the civil trial?

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Another thing.

Can prior arrest and conviction records be brought into evidence during a civil trial?

Like, if RG or MB had a demonstrated prior history of assault … isn’t that fair game to bring up during the civil trial?

You betcha.

[eggbutt]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

The gun wasn’t a threat?

MB had a second magazine in his pocket. RG would not know for a fact that he had the second magazine, and he wouldn’t know for a fact that he didn’t.

There is evidence there was nothing in the pocket.

Yeah. I missed this whole part of the trial. Did one of the police officers testify to finding a magazine in MBs pocket when they arrived on the scene?

Yes, Hut-Ho posted the testimony a bit up thread. The testimony was that a magazine was taken from MBs pocket, and put in one of the police cars.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom actually the first cop on the scene testified at the Miranda Hearing that he searched MB and found absolutely nothing other than the gun under his body near his hand. Keep in mind the khaki shorts he was wearing were shredded and his tshirt was on the ground some distance away. Was Heymer lying? Was the other cop lying? Both under oath but obviously one was “mistaken”. Which one?