MB update

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ekat

For clarification, the first officer on the scene, the one that patted him down and put him in cuffs, did not, in fact, find a magazine in the pocket of his dog bitten shorts.

Oh. Thank you for that.

So one officer didn’t find the magazine in his shorts. Then another guy later on did?

That’s weird. Very weird.

[ekat]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Oh. Thank you for that.

So one officer didn’t find the magazine in his shorts. Then another guy later on did?

That’s weird. Very weird.

@eggbutt said it better than me…

[trubandloki]

@cutter99

Yeah, my money is on the fact it did not happen this way, and MB was already on the ground, dog bitten and beat about the head, with a severely damaged arm and head injury, until the “hero” put him in a chokehold.

Or sitting in a chair attempting to have a simple conversation… Ya know, at that table where all the cell phones were neatly piled.

[eggbutt]

Well, I’m positive he is well versed in the art of SPIN. The only issue is he can’t recall previous narratives to keep his stories straight. Apparently birds of a feather do flock together in this instance.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ekat

You betcha

Well that might be a teensy tinsy little problem for the “hero” narrative.

Oh… and it also adds some weight to the possibility that they jumped MB first.

[Sdel]

@ekat

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Ok.

My memory, admitted, is a muddled mess sometimes.

For clarification, the first officer on the scene, the one that patted him down and put him in cuffs, did not, in fact, find a magazine in the pocket of his dog bitten shorts.

So….quick thought……police are actually known to lie on the stand right? It has been documented/proven that they will lie about what they did or didn’t do in order to smooth out their own mistakes or inconsistencies right? They are only human after all.

[MHM]

@cutter99

This post points out to me the absurdity that people believe RG is such a hero. Wasn’t RG’s height testified to as bring about 5’9” or less?

Yet he somehow got behind an “active shooter”, as certain posters would like us to believe, who was 6’3” and very fit. And RG was able to get this much taller man, 6” taller, in a reverse choke hold and choke him out while standing?

Yeah, my money is on the fact it did not happen this way, and MB was already on the ground, dog bitten and beat about the head, with a severely damaged arm and head injury, until the “hero” put him in a chokehold.

I also think people get carried away or distracted by the difference in size between the two men. Yes, MB was taller and probably fitter than RG.

But MB spent his life riding dressage horses. RG claimed to have experience as a Marine, including combat training, combined with a long history of shady criminal behavior, according to his extensive arrest record.

Which of those two people is likely to have a much bigger advantage in a physical altercation? Regardless of their relative size?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Sdel

So….quick thought……police are actually known to lie on the stand right? It has been documented/proven that they will lie about what they did or didn’t do in order to smooth out their own mistakes or inconsistencies right? They are only human after all.

Sure. They most certainly might engage in some CYA if necessary to cover for their own professional lapses.

[ekat]

@MHM

I also think people get carried away or distracted by the difference in size between the two men. Yes, MB was taller and probably fitter than RG.

But MB spent his life riding dressage horses. RG claimed to have experience as a Marine, including combat training, combined with a long history of shady criminal behavior, according to his extensive arrest record.

Which of those two people is likely to have a much bigger advantage in a physical altercation? Regardless of their relative size?

Plus, it’s not like he was 150 lb soaking wet string bean guy. From all appearances, he’s pretty stocky. There might be a height difference, but I would bet the weight difference isn’t that huge.

[Sdel]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Sdel

So….quick thought……police are actually known to lie on the stand right? It has been documented/proven that they will lie about what they did or didn’t do in order to smooth out their own mistakes or inconsistencies right? They are only human after all.

Sure. The most certainly might engage in some CYA if necessary to cover for their own professional lapses.

So, it is entirely possible the officer that testified only said he got the magazine from MB’s pocket in order to explain a magazine that appeared out of nowhere with no explanation in an area where the scene was unsecured and a participant had recently been wandering around……in a case that had such colossal forensic screwups.

[eggbutt]

The memory of Heymer’s testimony is seared into my memory because it was so informative. Talk about bombshells!

Although videos or recordings of the hearing were prohibited, did anyone by chance forget and maybe phone recorded his testimony? I know @Sdel and I took close to identical notes and posted as the hearing was taking place real time.

[trubandloki]

Would the testimony be transcribed somewhere?

[MHM]

@ekat

@MHM

I also think people get carried away or distracted by the difference in size between the two men. Yes, MB was taller and probably fitter than RG.

But MB spent his life riding dressage horses. RG claimed to have experience as a Marine, including combat training, combined with a long history of shady criminal behavior, according to his extensive arrest record.

Which of those two people is likely to have a much bigger advantage in a physical altercation? Regardless of their relative size?

Plus, it’s not like he was 150 lb soaking wet string bean guy. From all appearances, he’s pretty stocky. There might be a height difference, but I would bet the weight difference isn’t that huge.

Especially once you factor in LK and the dog, who were also attacking MB, by their own admissions in court. (Poor Rosie.)

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@MHM

I also think people get carried away or distracted by the difference in size between the two men. Yes, MB was taller and probably fitter than RG.

But MB spent his life riding dressage horses. RG claimed to have experience as a Marine, including combat training, combined with a long history of shady criminal behavior, according to his extensive arrest record.

Which of those two people is likely to have a much bigger advantage in a physical altercation? Regardless of their relative size?

I COMPLETELY agree with this.

There’s a reason people in the military practice hand to hand combat. Speed and reaction time is of the essence.

Also, there’s a reason people with long rap sheets often have repeated arrests involving DV, agg assault, simple assault, etc. There clearly are some human beings who have lost touch with their civilized side, to some extent, and have a tendency to react with violence when conflict arises.

I think when you combine RGs history with both the Marines, AND his arrest record… and you compare it to MB spending his life training flight animals in the art of dressage…

It speaks powerfully as to which one was more likely to have started the violent conflict. And when it comes to hand to hand life and death struggles, speed and reaction time most definitely trumps size …

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Suppose MB had reloaded and killed both RG and LK, then shot himself? That’s definitely possible, given that we’re talking about a legally insane person with a gun, acting out in desperation.

Suppose none of this went down the way two serial liars say it did?

[eggbutt]

Remember all the holes Bilinkas brought up in their testimony versus the officer’s notes taken later. There were quite a few discrepancies. Just more to add to the pile of incompetence with this PD.

[Sdel]

I remember it well too. Since the hearing was open court, it was most certainly officially recorded and the defense would have access to the transcript. I certainly hope that if someone broke the law recording that hearing that they don’t admit it.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Wasn’t the gun jammed though?

ETA: apparently it was empty, not jammed. But RG thought it was jammed.

And if RG really is any sort of Marine, he would have had hand to hand combat training. He would have received some in boot camp, and more later. So he got some training, regardless of when/why his association with the US Marine Corps terminated.

Per his own testimony, he was able to get behind MB, and administer a choke hold. Per RGs own testimony, MB lost consciousness and went down when RG applied the reverse chokehold. Presumably MB came to shortly thereafter… but at that point, he was down on the ground, with RG on top of him, per RGs own testimony.

Why then did RG proceed to beat in MBs head AFTER all that? A reverse chokehold is a known technique, that is widely considered one of the most effective ways of subduing an opponent in a hand to hand combat situation. They apparently don’t teach Marines to beat peoples heads into concrete AFTER getting someone in a reverse chokehold. That’s just a criminal street fighting type of move.

Regardless… PERHAPS RG was justified in terms of beating MBs head into the concrete after having administered the reverse chokehold and gotten MB on the ground… after all … LK had been shot.

But wasn’t the gun jammed at that point?

ETA: Again, apparently the clip was empty, not jammed… but… RG thought it was jammed.

And again, how does self defense work in NJ? If RG had MB in a reverse chokehol, and subdued on the ground… is it really still self defense if he then proceeds tp beat MBs head against the concrete and kill him?

I’m not so sure about that.

I thought that RG put MB into the chokehold on the raised patio, and both of them then fell off the patio onto whatever was below. Gravel? More concrete?

Do you begrudge RG a certain amount of rage at seeing his girlfriend shot and likely dying when he (heroically) moves to subdue a shooter?

I begrudge a person like RG who participates in a possible attempted murder of MB because it is completely feasible MB was jumped first, a scenario which must be presented in light of MBs initial self defense assertion at the criminal trial.

If the jury believes this scenario the civil plaintiff will not prevail but the counterclaim will.

I realize you and Eggbutt will go to your graves believing, or claiming you believe, that RG and LK were the aggressors, jumped MB, and that MB acted in self defense.

But the criminal trial is over, and that is not the finding of fact that the jury arrived at. Your continuing to misstate the NGRI verdict (wrt to LK) as NG will not change the jury’s finding.

Since we are now discussing the civil trial, is your point that you predict that MBs team will attempt to defend against the suit by trying to establish that MB was acting in self defense?

Do you think the attorneys for SGF will also use that defense?

If your scenario is that MB transported himself to their location with the gun, and before he started shooting, RG jumped him and started beating him, at which point he then shot LK (because she was hitting him on the head with her cell phone), I think it would be difficult to establish self defense when MB took himself to their location and brought the lethal weapon.

I think there is a zero % chance that MBs lawyers will try to defend against the suit by trying to establish MB acted in self defense.

[cutter99]

I don’t know too many addicts that are physically fit and combat ready.

[ekat]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Since we are now discussing the civil trial, is your point that you predict that MBs team will attempt to defend against the suit by trying to establish that MB was acting in self defense

Again, if you read the civil suit you will see that MB has absolutely asserted self defense in his answer.

“I think there is a zero % chance that MBs lawyers will try to defend against the suit by trying to establish MB acted in self defense.”

Sorry my quote function broke

I think there’s a 100% chance you’re wrong, since they already asserted that in their answer.