Modern Pentathalon

[Manni01]

Yup starting at M-level . Why do you think only from that level??? Because they are considered a very harsh bit which belongs not into the hands of unexperienced riders…. Try to mention that you are riding your horse with a gag in German discussion boards, you would be amazed about what people think about it….

So using them in a competition were horses are not even known to the riders (and according to this board the riders are usually not very experienced riders anyhow) It seems to be not really horse friendly……

I am sure in Germany a rider competing in a show at M- level has known his horse for longer then 20 min

[Jealoushe]

Man is LEGEND.

Absolute LEGEND.

[BWP]

German pentathlon pair may face animal cruelty charge

[Jealoushe]

YIKES.

Slippery slope happening here.

[Djones]

I think this bears repeating. Multiple horses were crashed into fences in MP and it is a thousand wonders no one was seriously injured. I can’t imagine having loaned a horse to this sport and seeing how they were ridden. Again many participants were riders, but too many more were just strong humans with too much courage and not enough skill.

[Equkelly]

@Jealoushe

YIKES.

Slippery slope happening here.

Do we know if the “German Animal Welfare Association” is a legit organization though? Or are they like PETA?

[Jealoushe]

Does @Manni01 know?

[Jealoushe]

https://www.tierschutzbund.de/en/start/

[McGurk]

A couple of clarifications re: Pony Finals.

Eliazabeth Mandarino, a professional, was administering Mag Sulfate to a pony, Humble, at the Devon Horse Show in 2012 and the pony died as a result. Not Pony Finals, not that it makes it any less heinous.

Calling her a “pony mom” is a little more disingenous. She has a well known barn with a big program; the pony Humble was leased to one of her clients, but was under her care, custody and control. She did also have a daughter who was a pony rider at that time, I think (?), but she was acting in her capacity as a trainer and owner of the leased pony when she gave the injection, not a “pony mom.”

Mandarino Admits Causing Pony's Death | Horse Authority

The fall out from the incident was immediate and intense. There were investigations and a lot of attention was focused on excessive med regimens in the top hunter barns, and performance altering substances that don’t test, like Carolina Gold, GABA, Perfect Prep and mag sulfate.

So, as someone else has said earlier, any time you have horses and people and then add competition, you have the potential for abuse. All horse sports have abuse; the best only have it on the fringes or among a very small percentage of participants.

But the Mandarino/Humble incident is a very, very poor comparison to the issue in Modern Pentathlon. The primary issue being discussed is the EPIC poor sportsmanship/poor horsemanship displayed by the German rider. A better comparison would be the hunter rider (A J &J heiress, IIRC) that was sanctioned for kicking her horse in the belly in a fit of pique after she fell off.

UPDATE: Johnson & Johnson Heiress Suspended by USEF for Bad Behavior |...

The secondary issue is that the current rules of Modern Pentathlon create a situation that is rife with horse welfare issues, and some posters were making reasonable suggestions for changing the rules to make it safer for the horses.

Playing “But what about abuse in other horse sports?” is a weird flex and not particularly relevant to either issue, ie, poor horsemanship or changes to the rules to ensure horse welfare.

[AltersAreUs]

Thank you for laying that out so much better than I could have.

[Djones]

Thank you, @McGurk for such a well-stated response. I’d forgotten about that woman having a fit for all to see.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Re: Pony Finals. I do think it’s another apples to oranges comparison, although, to be fair, the high-end pony world has also been criticized for fostering a generation of kids who are more pilots than riders/horsepersons, and people more focused on winning than taking responsibility for what goes on at the barn (and leaving medication, bitting, and stabling choices up to the trainer). Yes, it’s nice if a child pats a pony if they fall off, but that’s not where good sportspersonship ends.

I don’t think there is any horse discipline that can claim to be problem-free, TBH. I can’t help but wonder, though, if some of the more extreme examples we’ve seen about regarding horses as bikes comes from sadly how more and more removed the average person or athlete is becoming from riding.

I just want to note that I’ve been to a number of clinics by Tik Maynard, who is a incredibly gentle and capable horseman (and writer), particularly with emotionally fragile horses, as well as the husband of an eventer, and a former pentathlete for Canada.

[Mander]

When I clicked on that article about the J&J heiress, I expected to see a frustrated 13 year old girl on a mischievous pony. After watching the video, I thought she was probably more like a 15yo with a temper.

She’s 36. Thirty. Six. Years. Old.

Good god.

[AltersAreUs]

@Mander

Good god.

Yep, that was everyone’s reaction at the time as well.

Let’s be honest, we’ve all WANTED to kick a horse at one point or another in our lives. Very few of us have the poor judgement to actually try to do it, let alone try it at a major competition surrounded by cameras.

She’s sure up there with the German MP rider for the “worst example of sportsmanship involving horses” award .

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

At least in that instance the horse was probably fine, even bemused, at the ineffectual kick, and not seemingly traumatized by the riding (although it’s also likely the horse was soured by perhaps too much showing). Although I do remember being somewhat taken aback by the social media debate by a vocal minority that the horse had done a “dirty stop.” Again, the whole suggestion that somehow the horse “owes” the rider a performance of a certain caliber was off-putting.

[Mander]

Hmm I wish I could share that optimism.

When I look at that little display, while “small”, I see a trend of treatment to that horse. Is it any wonder he started to get a little crabby? Judging from the way he started to jitter away from her before she was even back on her feet, I’m guessing she’s not particularly magnanimous at home either. He knew that kick was coming long before anyone watching did.

[B-burg_Dressage]

Man, I’ve wanted to kick my horse once (or at least was so frustrated I could have sympathy to the idea). After two hours trying to load onto the trailer that we practice loading on all the time.
But instead of doing that, I handed him over to my trainer who didn’t have the emotional investment in the situation.
Now I’ve just bought him a new trailer that he likes better!

And so far, I’ve never taken to repeatedly hitting with a whip while crying. And I’m not even 31 yet! Don’t remember doing it when I was a kid and certainly wouldn’t find any reason do hit a horse 6 times in a row as an adult. Sure, I’m not at the Olympics, but I’ve gotten some sub 60s in dressage tests where shit hit the fan and still gave my horse a pat at the end of the ride.

I do really wonder what the horse people in her circle are saying. Because her interview didn’t seem like she thought she had done anything wrong. I do feel bad for her that it was so public and she will likely never live it down, but…

[SuzieQNutter]

The people who hit, kick, excessively hit horses are simply people who are frustrated because they have come to the end of what they know.

It simply means they need to continue learning.

People need an open mind to learn.

[McGurk]

Another element to be considered in solving the issues for MP is the host venue.

I watched a not statistically relevant sample of the rides from the men’s comp in London in 2012. The horses were lovely and well schooled, I would have taken any one of them home in a minute. There was a clear round that almost looked like a hunter round, and some decent rounds that had rails because of rider error, particularly in the combinations. But the horses were relaxed and forward with pricked ears and the riding non-abusive; competent if not polished.

Again, not statistically relevant, BUT the UK is the birthplace of Pony Club, home to the BHS and lotsa riding clubs and riding schools . They also have a VERY strong show jumping tradition. London may have had a much deeper pool of potential horses for MP than Rio or Toyko.

So my question is: Is the quality of the horses available at the host nation/venue a big, unconsidered factor?

Horsekeeping in Japan is supposed to be incredibly expensive due to the lack of open land and other factors. IME, the existence of “step down” horses depends largely on the relative cost of horse keeping. In other words, a situation in which a horse can either perform at a high level or it’s not worth keeping means there just aren’t a lot of solid ammy friendly horses that can navigate a 3’ 6" course, let alone owners who are willing to lend them!

The IEA and IHSA seem to handle the issue by having people show at 3’ or below and having the host schools provide the school horses. I have seen some not-pretty things at IEA shows, but nothing like we saw in Toyko for MP.

[erinmeri]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

I do think it’s noteworthy that you can’t find video of the Rio pentathlon jumping rounds… men’s or women’s… ANYWHERE on the web. From the comments I have seen… it was an absolute disaster as well.

TikTok to the rescue:

Maggie Mae on TikTok

Absolute disaster sounds about right.