Negligent or not?

[JanM]

I lived in Colorado when a kid who was permanently injured in upper level skiing sued once he turned 18, and the court ruled that the parents couldn’t waive liability for their child… In this case the mother signed the waiver, so the son and his father sued when the son turned 18.

https://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2002-06-27/article/13003?headline=Parents-can-t-waive-liability-for-child-Colorado-court-finds-in-skiing-accident-case---

This citation talks about this case in Colorado, and other cases, that also said a parent can’t waive the liability for a child, and the child can sue when they reach 18 or the age of majority in that state.

http://mason.gmu.edu/~jkozlows/waivkid.html

Colorado later passed legislation allowing waivers for children.

The implications of a case over liability waivers, and ruling that a parent can’t sign away liability for a child can be long reaching too. If a parent’s waiver isn’t legal, then every permission slip, or waiver is invalid if the child decides to sue when they hit 18, for an injury, a medical procedure, or a bad outcome for something the parent signed a consent for.

In the current case, I think that the fault lies with whoever decided to put the kid on the horse at that time. I see no liability for the seller, but I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone was sued, since you can try to sue anybody.

[sascha]

@darcilyna

There was a storm watch/warning during this time frame. Enough storms expected that public schools cancelled all afternoon outdoor activities. One school a town over even had early dismissal due to impending storms. Even a tornado warning just a few towns over.

The kid should be taken away from the parents.

No negligence on the part of the seller apart from the idiocy that had them allow a trial ride during an active/impending electrical storm. Horses don’t come with invisible lightning cloaking or Faraday cages. <- that said, it amazes me how many people do stupid human tricks during t-storms, so why would they think their horses need any more care than they give themselves?

I’m less concerned about the age of the horse. Some 5 year olds are as close to ‘bomb proof’ as a horse will ever get. Some 20 year olds should never have a child on their backs.

[OverandOnward]

One thing that occurs to me is that thunder = lightning … but not necessarily close by.

Many COTHers have ridden their class or their round during a storm. There are abundant youtube videos of UL riders in pouring rain — like, hard-to-breathe rain.

I have watched a front cross a field to hit head-on into horses and riders on course, and they were all fine. I’ve ridden into such fronts, and remember vividly being prepared for a horse reaction, only to find out that I had a very tough horse who cared not about being slammed in the face by cold wind and precipitation. To me it was familiar from skiing so not a big deal.

I’ve been a volunteer at a horse trials while a storm was whipping in, wind gusting ever more fiercely and thunder. Watching the sky and figuring our how many more rounds we could get in before the lightning was too close to continue. Can we finish the division? Looking at the weather app, how long should we anticipate the break before the rides can start again? It was ride on until the TD called it.

A storm blowing in is likely not a good time to try a horse that you’d seriously like to go home (or stay home) with the people trying him/her. BUT it is not necessarily time to call it off, depending on horse & rider. I probably would not do the ride with an 8 yo rider. But myself, until lightning was too close, this is a great chance to see how the horse works with abnormal distractions.

Maybe the trainer had hauled the horse over with a drive they didn’t want to do over, so was leaning into pushing on. But we all know that a lot of effort can end up wasted because a horse temperament doesn’t mesh well with whatever conditions were present at the moment.

What it comes down to: We weren’t there. A thousand unknown details. Different people would make different decisions in the same conditions, same people.

Not possible to make a call on this. Sometimes you have to let this one go. And hope the kid makes it to adulthood ok … kids can be remarkably resilient even with scatty parents.

[JenEM]

Was this the bad line of storms that came through MD/VA on Monday?

Because, as someone watching that storm front build all during my commute home, I made the decision not to go ride. I have a 5YO TB–one who generally is kick along quiet enough that I would put a supervised 8YO on her–and fear of her spooking at the rain/wind had nothing to do with it. I didn’t want to chance getting hit by lighting coming from the (metal) barn into the (metal) indoor, or having a tree come down on my car.

Anyone with a lick of common sense would have watched the hour it took for that to build up and roll in, and said “NOPE” not safe to be outside, no matter what horse you’re getting on. Irresponsible by all adults involved.

I hope the child heals quickly.

[NC001]

Even if the horse isnt spooky in thunder/storms, the kid may have been and with a young horse it may have impacted its behavior. I was hand walking my horse one day as a storm rolled in and lightening hit super close and the resulting boom was intense. I jumped - and then the horse pulled back. Not sure because of my reaction or the boom. anyways he recovered quickly and it wasnt a big deal but glad I wasnt riding I would have fallen off just from my reaction.

As for the age of the horse- no an issue. My kid rode a 5 yr old horse starting when she was 10 (and not the greatest rider). Rode that horse 4 times a week for over 3 years. Never had a fall of him. Other people did have falls off of him though. I still see the horse regularly and see him carting young lesson kids around … he takes care of those kids. Adults are on their own though!

Anyways I say no negligence on the seller.

[clanter]

@darcilyna

So far noone thinks that a horse being young/green 5 year old in itself is a bad match for a beginner 8 year old?

A friend of mine insists that is a bad idea in the first place.

my daughter started riding at three and was accomplished enough by four to handle a double bridle correctly

our horses worked on voice commands since the kids’ legs were too short to cue the horse
here you can see her feet are not in the stirrups but on top of

(edit to add years later this horse was loaned to new beginner rider for a class, the judge noticed the horse was changing gaits/direction by listening to the ring steward telling the announcer to call out a change)

We had our kids’ horse in training from age 2 to 4, the last year the mare was attracting a lot of attention from rich grand parents with very deep pockets wanting our kid’s horse for their grand kids

she showed this mare all through her junior exhibitor years (last five years as the secondary mount

[darcilyna]

Curious what states…or how to find this information…

[darcilyna]

I don’t want to give too many details but will say the seller did not need to travel far at all.

[darcilyna]

I don’t want to say too much but the storm was known well in advance …weather alerts on phones going off. Official weather channel warnings, etc. Outdoor public school activities cancelled etc…

[trubandloki]

@darcilyna

I don’t want to say too much but the storm was known well in advance …weather alerts on phones going off. Official weather channel warnings, etc. Outdoor public school activities cancelled etc…

Not that this situation is funny at all, but this makes me giggle.
You must live in a part of the world where storm warnings that close school activities actually mean a storm is coming.
I swear that the more vocal the weather forecast is about how horrible the incoming weather is going to be, and the more things that are cancelled because of that, the less likely the weather thing is to happen. (In my part of the world most of those warnings are blizzard related.)

[SummerRose]

It’s pretty easy to look up the laws if you know the state. Just search the state name and equine liability law.

Of course, if the buyers are seeking legal advice, they need to talk to an experienced attorney in their area.

Regardless of what the state law is, if the parents want to attempt to recoup the insurance costs, at least, their health insurance company is one place to start. The insurance company will try to recover from the seller if it’s possible. And the parents could try to get the sellers liability insurance info (if they have insurance) and file a claim through the seller’s insurance.

(I’m not recommending that anyone sue anyone else or go after anyone else’s insurance. But that’s what insurance is for, so it is a legal option. And if the insurance companies decide that there’s no liability, then the buyers would have their answer.

And this is the reason that its highly advised that horse people have good liability insurance even if they do keep horses in a state thst has a good equine liability statute.)

[candyappy]

@darcilyna

As to whose idea I don’t know but unwise overall with a storm coming.

Storms can come up so quick and if we didn’t ride because there was a “possibility” of one some of us would never ride at all.

I do question the thinking of such a young rider on a 5 year old, with thunder and lightning present for all to see/ hear.

Riding is dangerous under the perfect weather conditions.

[darcilyna]

The alert from the time frame the ride occured. This was a push notification alert my daughter had texted me when she got home from school that day.

I share this to say that it wasn’t just like “oh it’s supposed to rain.”. There were legit severe weather alerts going on, etc…

[S1969]

@hybriseris

I’m very sorry the girl got hurt but her parents could also have called it off at any time.

This. Obviously the 8 year old did not schedule this trial - her parents did. Nor did the seller; he doesn’t manage the 8 year old’s calendar.

The parents are 100% responsible. For choosing the 5 year old green broke horse as a potential ride for their child, for not getting on first and/or having a trainer get on first, and for going forward with a trial during a storm. On their own property.

Is someone actually suggesting that the seller is responsible?

[SusanO]

I am in central Alabama and we get warnings like that almost every other day in the summertime. Would I ride in one - no I respect lightening too much. Some horses are really chill in that weather and some like the problem child become really jumpy. Age has nothing to do with it. I vote that the child’s parents used poor judgement.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@S1969

Is someone actually suggesting that the seller is responsible?

Well, that appears to be what the OP is suggesting.

[OverandOnward]

@S1969

The parents are 100% responsible. For choosing the 5 year old green broke horse as a potential ride for their child, for not getting on first and/or having a trainer get on first, and for going forward with a trial during a storm. On their own property.

Exactly. With all of these details, I doubt there is any way liability would be assigned to anyone but the parents. In fact if they pursue this legally they could be opening a pandora’s box of trouble and expense that falls back on them. Even paying the other party’s attorney fees.

Their kid, their property, their interest in trading or buying. It doesn’t matter if the trainer was out of line. The parents need to take this as a learning experience.

Not all of life’s bad judgments can be blamed on someone else.

Trying to re-frame and add facts and so on and on to manipulate a different outcome … again, what is the point ??? Time to move on.

[lenapesadie]

I don’t even like being outside when thunder is rolling. I don’t want to get struck by lightning.

Much less ride a horse who may spook. Or we both get struck by lightning.

[Jenerationx]

It wouldn’t matter to me if a trainer or seller thought it was a good idea, they’re not in charge of the 8 year old.

[clanter]

@trubandloki

You must live in a part of the world where storm warnings that close school activities actually mean a storm is coming.

My daughter was a high school tennis coach, often their matches were cancelled due to electrical storms …lightening has been known to range up to nine miles from a storm if you can hear thunder, chances are that you’re within striking distance of the storm.