[QUOTE=Crash Helmet;8136200]
A glut of Parra training videos were uploaded on dressageclinic.com a few months ago. Have any of you seen them? They are remarkably bad. Even if Parra can take a topnotch horse to the top, I expect the only place he could take my unspectacular horses is to the bank.[/QUOTE]
With his reputation it’s either to the bank or the grave unfortunately.
[QUOTE=Crash Helmet;8136200]
A glut of Parra training videos were uploaded on dressageclinic.com a few months ago. Have any of you seen them? They are remarkably bad. Even if Parra can take a topnotch horse to the top, I expect the only place he could take my unspectacular horses is to the bank.[/QUOTE]
And to DFL in the show ring, eh Crash?
I don’t want to fan the flames, but I thought Trudy Miranda had been a prior customer and that even William (horse) had been there before? (I think I read this detail in the initial detailed reports… but seems there are contributors to this thread who may have personal knowledge.) As far as how someone can be his client, even when his reputation and training methods are known, this is interesting.
Who is World Dressage News and why is a friend (Sharon Packer) submitting articles on behalf of Parra. They have just posted a correction to the article. Why were these issues not investigated prior to its publication. Also saw on Miranda’s Facebook that a key witness was unable to testify because it was prejudicial to Parra???
Correction: The article originally stated that a video was entered into evidence. This writer has since learned via email from the horse owner, Trudy Miranda, that no video evidence was shown to the jury.
[QUOTE=ToN Farm;8136110]
:lol: Hey, OJ can still get women (and men). Look at those trainers that killed horses for insurance money. They continued to keep clients. What some of you don’t seem to be able to understand is that to some clients, being have to acquire a fancy horse and win at FEI trumps everything else.[/QUOTE]
Plus there’s always the folks who convince themselves that for them it will be different - THEIR horse is special or whatever.
I’ve stayed out of this discussion for years because I don’t want his lawyers finding me and threatening me. He makes me so sick to my stomach that I’m going to say what I personally witnessed in only a few hours. He got on a young horse. The horse was a little balky. He beat the H*** out of it until it was terrified and rearing. Then he GOT OFF and put the whip behind his back to put as much force into the beating as possible. He got back on and continued to beat him. He didn’t tell me he was sorry he did it. He told me he was sorry I witnessed it. All but one horse that I saw that day was ridden in a double bridle, with its head tied almost to its chest with two lines coming from the girth in between the front legs, giant rowel spurs, and a whip. He rode by me on a Grand Prix horse and kicked him so hard with the spurs that blood spurted and ran down the horse’s sides. He had young riders using the same equipment. If the horse had reared, it never would have been able to use its neck as a balancing pole to regain footing. It would have flipped over backwards. I’m assuming that’s what happened to William. I sincerely thought I would throw up and I never went back, but it haunts me.
[QUOTE=norton;8138193]
All but one horse that I saw that day was ridden in a double bridle, with its head tied almost to its chest with two lines coming from the girth in between the front legs, giant rowel spurs, and a whip. [/QUOTE]
I personally know a person who was a working student of Parra’s some time ago and is still a client, and she still regularly uses the above bolded contraption on her dressage horses, and brags that she learned it from Cesar.
I know someone else who was a working student for him some time ago who never, ever mentions that now. She doesn’t badmouth him, but she won’t offer the information willingly, either.
I know all of this is secondhand but I can tell you I know enough about person A’s horsemanship to know that if she learned ANY of it at Cesar’s it’s not a place I’d want to take a horse.
[QUOTE=norton;8138193]
I’ve stayed out of this discussion for years because I don’t want his lawyers finding me and threatening me. He makes me so sick to my stomach that I’m going to say what I personally witnessed in only a few hours. He got on a young horse. The horse was a little balky. He beat the H*** out of it until it was terrified and rearing. Then he GOT OFF and put the whip behind his back to put as much force into the beating as possible. He got back on and continued to beat him. He didn’t tell me he was sorry he did it. He told me he was sorry I witnessed it. All but one horse that I saw that day was ridden in a double bridle, with its head tied almost to its chest with two lines coming from the girth in between the front legs, giant rowel spurs, and a whip. He rode by me on a Grand Prix horse and kicked him so hard with the spurs that blood spurted and ran down the horse’s sides. He had young riders using the same equipment. If the horse had reared, it never would have been able to use its neck as a balancing pole to regain footing. It would have flipped over backwards. I’m assuming that’s what happened to William. I sincerely thought I would throw up and I never went back, but it haunts me.[/QUOTE]
If believable, you just confirmed by eye witness account what Parra does to the horses in his care. I don’t recall him owning any Grand Prix horses himself, so the horse that you saw with blood coming from its sides was owned by someone else. I imagine the owner would of wanted to know their horse was being abused. The young horse you are referring to, was that owned by you or someone else. I would be haunted by witnessing that type of abuse myself but I would be more haunted by the fact that I did not step up and say anything especially when it could of made a difference.
I strongly suggest anyone looking to find a trainer for their horse to always go watch the trainer ride/ school at a horse show and at their own barn. Don’t look at dressage scores only to gauge success. Any trainer proud of their program will invite you to come watch them ride at home. In the past I have always scheduled to come at say 9am, but then show up at 8am saying something “I left some extra time incase I got lost and ended up getting here early” (as an aside I do this if looking at a horse to buy too). This way I can see a bit of how they do without being totally prepared.
If more people did that, and did not just rely on scores, situations like this would happen less frequently. If someone wants a bigger-name-trainer for their horse there are so many great ones out there that have none of this drama.
[QUOTE=ponypappy;8136011]
. It certainly has afforded him the ability to pay for very expensive lawyers and lots of them. How many horse trainers do you know that are able to do that.[/QUOTE]
Well…let’s see. Do you mean in the US or in Europe ? 
Are you referring to lawsuits he is involved with in Europe??
No.
Your question to us was “How many horse trainers do you know that are able to do that” referring to retaining expensive lawyers.
My reply to you asked if you meant trainers in the US or Europe ?
CP isn’t alone in having a team of attorneys on hand.
Lest anyone think he is the devil incarnate when it comes to horses, I will again mention my experiences and those of other people I know.
About three years ago, a trainer friend went to FL to ride/train in his barn for three months. She reported that she never saw a single instance of anything that remotely resembled “abuse”, nor questionable training techniques, by CP or by any of his working students. He is demanding of horse and rider, but this person has also spent time riding in a few top European training barns, and he is not any tougher than some very highly regarded international riders. My friend had also taken two of her young horses with her to his barn, and they handled things really well and made enormous progress during those three months.
This same friend later sent her stallion to him, to polish up for GP. I can’t remember how long he was there - 5 or 6 months - but when he came back, he looked fantastic, his attitude was great, and he had also made good progress in his training.
I personally have been to CP’s barn in FL. I watched him teach lessons, and watched him ride several horses, including in a lesson taught by one of our former Olympians. I did not witness one hint of questionable riding or training, and all the horses seemed to be pretty content with things.
I have also had my horse in a CP clinic, and know several other people who rode in the same clinic. Again, there was no hint of questionable training, and he was able to help the riders make progress with various aspects of their riding. One rider did not have a good experience with him as she was pretty sore from a recent breast biopsy, and she felt he pushed her too much.
Another friend who rode in the same clinic, later went to FL and spent the winter training in his barn. When he went back to his NJ facility the next spring, she decided to sell her house in this area and move to that area so she could continue riding with him. She bought an FEI schoolmaster from him, and has now purchased another promising younger horse.
Personally, he is friendly, charming, outgoing, enthusiastic, and passionate about horses and dressage. When I was around him, I kept looking for signs of horns or a pointed tail, but alas, I saw none.:winkgrin:
I also wanted to add - I saw the video of William being lunged. While I would never put side reins that short, CP was using a technique not uncommon in many European training barns. That practice is often used for horses that rear and strike - and it is my understanding that William had a propensity for this bad habit. Also don’t forget that several other stallion training facilities had declined to accept the horse in their program, which is why the owner went to CP.
I have not seen the whipping and spurring described but I have seen the nose bands tightened with a pair of pliers because fingers just are not strong enough.
Definitely a charming man with a big posse of Dutch young riders who seem to admire him.
[QUOTE=Blume Farm;8138485]
I strongly suggest anyone looking to find a trainer for their horse to always go watch the trainer ride/ school at a horse show and at their own barn. Don’t look at dressage scores only to gauge success. Any trainer proud of their program will invite you to come watch them ride at home. In the past I have always scheduled to come at say 9am, but then show up at 8am saying something “I left some extra time incase I got lost and ended up getting here early” (as an aside I do this if looking at a horse to buy too). This way I can see a bit of how they do without being totally prepared.
If more people did that, and did not just rely on scores, situations like this would happen less frequently. If someone wants a bigger-name-trainer for their horse there are so many great ones out there that have none of this drama.[/QUOTE]
The bolded, just so you know, is super annoying to the honest people who are not going to screw you over.
I used to keep my 3 horses at a private 8 stall barn behind someone’s house. I was the only boarder and the owner had his own 4 horses. This barn was an hour and a half away from where I lived, but it was an architectural masterpiece, with vaulted ceilings, sky lights, 15’ x 18’ stalls, a heated washstall…the works. One of my horses was for sale, and I had secured permission to allow guests to come on the property to try the horse. So these yahoos scheduled an appointment to come see him and wanted to come in the morning. I told them to come at x time, but if they came earlier I would not be there due to the hour and a half commute.
Fully an hour before the scheduled time while I am driving down 78, I get a call from the owner of the property who graciously lets me board horses at his PRIVATE (!!) PALACE that he is looking out of his kitchen window and there are yahoos loose in the barn unsupervised. Since the only people who ride there are him and me, there is no one else there. No grooms, no staff, no one.The one person who rides there is trying to have breakfast with his family and the other person who rides there is driving down 78! Meanwhile the yahoos had taken it upon themselves to go down the hill and through several gates to access the barn, and upon finding it entirely empty, decided to just …remain milling about in someone else’s showpiece architecture rather than return to their vehicle.
So the owner of the property had to abort breakfast with his family and had to go down the hill to corral the yahoos and spend an hour babysitting them and saying pleasantries while I drove down 78 as fast as I possibly could.
When I arrived, I a.) was pissed, and b.) marched to the paddock, called the horse up from yon hill, led horse back to the barn, put him in his house to pee with a flake of hay, got his tack organized in the grooming stall, pulled him out, tacked him up, and said “He’s ready for you to get on now.”
That was the prep.
That was the BIG CONSPIRACY we had going on for this 14.3 Appendix QH I was selling.
People think they are being so slick when they say, “anybody who is honest will just give you free rein to show up at their place any time you want and poke around,” but actually, no. Boundaries still exist, for perfectly good and non-nefarious reasons.
Watch out when you are so slickly trying to play “gotcha” with someone and treating them from the outset like they are dishonest, because if they are honest, and it turns out that you really like them and how they ride, your FIRST impression on them will have been to act like a total boundary-disrespecting tool and to alienate them. If you actually DO find someone you like, good luck getting them to agree to work with you after that.
[QUOTE=chisamba;8138938]
I have not seen the whipping and spurring described but I have seen the nose bands tightened with a pair of pliers because fingers just are not strong enough.
Definitely a charming man with a big posse of Dutch young riders who seem to admire him.[/QUOTE]
When I was there, he had working students from the U.S., Germany, Portugal, Holland, Columbia, and maybe a few other countries. They were all really good riders, and the care and professionalism was top notch. Every horse looked great - and I eyeballed pretty much all of them, in the ring, and in the barn (we roamed freely through the barn). They were in good flesh, with proper muscling, had a good bloom to them, there were no spur marks that I could see, no welts from whips, etc., nor did any of them look stressed or “wigged out”.
And there was this comment, from the person who spent three months training at his barn with her young horses.
“I’ve never witnessed any of these things (whipping, aggressive spurring, improper lunging, etc.) and the whole time I was there over the past several years, the horses worked hard and there was intensity in the riding, but no aggression. No bloody spur marks, no heads crammed down. I think most of this is simply hearsay and exaggeration… I think these people are cowards hiding behind keyboards who have probably never trained a horse, much less ridden one with any success.”
And while I would not send a horse to him (I honestly can’t think of more than a couple of international level riders in the U.S. that I would send a horse to) - the fact IN THIS CASE is that the jury unanimously voted to dismiss the charges for NO CAUSE. Let’s not forget that Miranda was the one who demanded a jury trial, as she no doubt felt it would be easier to get sympathy from a jury (juries tend to be more emotional about things than a judge). And if the video was not allowed into evidence, it had to be because Miranda’s own attorney didn’t do a good enough job of convincing the judge that it should be allowed. So now she is going to spend even more money on an appeal. I wonder if her minions Ponypappy, Rev Buck, etc. are chipping in for her legal expenses - and for what in return? 
[QUOTE=norton;8138193]
I’ve stayed out of this discussion for years because I don’t want his lawyers finding me and threatening me. He makes me so sick to my stomach that I’m going to say what I personally witnessed in only a few hours. He got on a young horse. The horse was a little balky. He beat the H*** out of it until it was terrified and rearing. Then he GOT OFF and put the whip behind his back to put as much force into the beating as possible. He got back on and continued to beat him. He didn’t tell me he was sorry he did it. He told me he was sorry I witnessed it. All but one horse that I saw that day was ridden in a double bridle, with its head tied almost to its chest with two lines coming from the girth in between the front legs, giant rowel spurs, and a whip. He rode by me on a Grand Prix horse and kicked him so hard with the spurs that blood spurted and ran down the horse’s sides. He had young riders using the same equipment. If the horse had reared, it never would have been able to use its neck as a balancing pole to regain footing. It would have flipped over backwards. I’m assuming that’s what happened to William. I sincerely thought I would throw up and I never went back, but it haunts me.[/QUOTE] I do not believe this at all. There may be parts of it that have some truth, but I believe you exaggerated on it greatly. Specifically about blood spurting. This is how people get bad reputations that a lot of the time aren’t deserved. I’m not saying this specifically about Cesar, but there may be people that repeat what is written in Norton’s post and next thing you know it becomes fact to some people.
I agree Meup. Super annoying.
The potential boarder who dropped by unannounced after being specifically asked to make an appointment explained she likes to drop in unannounced to catch people out. Rude.
She got the polite tour at a time which was inconvenient for me then was told- nothing available.
DownYonder, Your story although interesting is a " I knew somebody". How quickly you were to not believe what was allegedly an eye witness account. I think I am getting why people do not want to come forward.
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