New decision in Holstein

[grayarabpony]

Yes, but is the warmblood jumping genetic pool large enough to interbreed indefinitely? (Not only that, do enough of them have enough blood traits to keep them strong in the population? When I watched the WEG in Jerez I noticed several of the top dressage and jumping horses getting very tired before the end of the competition.)

If it is, great. If not then the registries need to look to outside sources that can jump 1.6m courses. Now they are turning to SFs. TBs are also a likely choice, given their recent competition history. It’s just too bad more aren’t purpose bred for jumping – the point that so-called “TB jihadists” have been trying to make.

[Elles]

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=cornet+d'amour&x=0&y=0
Cor de la Bryere 65,04%
Soleil 62,70%
Masetto 27,73%
Ohra 51,95%
Nimmerdor 38,87%
Bacarole 53,13%
Randel Z 39,26%
Gudula O 52,15%
Damokles 46,88%
Paddy 15,23%
Funke 52,73%
Revue 15,04%
Pilot 33,20%
Donna 8,01%
Rapallo 19,14%
Wanja 11,13%

Anestors of Paddy:
PERSEUS
Westf. DE341410162959
hengst 1959 schimmel
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 84,18%

DUELA
Hann DE341411447661 Staatsprämie
merrie 1961 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 30,66%

GRAPHIT
Hann DE331310412264
hengst 1964 bruin 1.65m
ggk: Hann

XX/OX percentage: 20,70%

KORNELIA
Hann DE331316805764 Hauptstutbuch
merrie 1964 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 45,31%

FRUEHLING
Westf. DE341410159860
hengst 1960 donkerbruin 1.66m
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 26,56%

ABENDKIND
Westf. DE341411416460
merrie 1960 vos

XX/OX percentage: 21,09%

AGENT
Westf. 410170864
hengst 1964 vos
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 16,02%

FLOCKE
Westf. 411473561
merrie 1961

XX/OX percentage: 9,96%

Ancestors of Revue:
RADETZKY
Westf. DE341410141251
hengst 1951 schimmel 1.62m
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 82,23%

FIDELIA
Westf. 410927747 Staatsprämie
merrie 1947

XX/OX percentage: 32,42%
LOHENGRIN
Westf. 410156859
hengst 1959 vos 1.69m
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 38,48%

SCHWALBE
Westf. 410884646
merrie 1946 zwart

XX/OX percentage: 8,20%

FERNALP
Hann 310371545
hengst 1945 bruin 1.60m
ggk: Hann

Hann. stam: 606
XX/OX percentage: 27,34%

DOMECKE
Hann DE331314657444 Hauptstutbuch
merrie 1944 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 34,38%

HALLO III
Westf. 410057039
hengst 1939 bruin
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 30,47%

Ancestors of Donna:
DUDEN I
Hann 310404359
hengst 1959 vos 1.60m
ggk: Hann, Hess

Hann. stam: 229
XX/OX percentage: 40,82%

WALDHIRTIN
Hann 316508661
merrie 1961

XX/OX percentage: 32,23%

FRUEHLING
Westf. DE341410159860
hengst 1960 donkerbruin 1.66m
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 26,56%

DORCHEN
Westf. 411466959
merrie 1959

XX/OX percentage: 15,23%

ABENDKIND
Westf. DE341411416460
merrie 1960 vos

XX/OX percentage: 21,09%

ALTINE
Hann
merrie 1922

XX/OX percentage: 23,63%

AMOROSO
Westf. 410080224
hengst 1924 schimmel
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 51,37%

VEREHRTESTE
Westf. DE341410066200
merrie

XX/OX percentage: 13,87%

Ancestors of Rapallo:
REMUS I
Westf. DE341410154758
hengst 1958 donkerbruin
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 49,80%

FABRIANA
Westf. 411179952
merrie 1952

XX/OX percentage: 36,91%

GRUNFINK
Westf. 410151856
hengst 1956 bruin
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 24,22%

DORETTE
Westf. 411306656 Staatsprämie
merrie 1956 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 21,48%

LUCIUS XX
xx 060036459
hengst 1959 vos
ggk: xx, Trakehner

XX/OX percentage: 100,00%

WELFIN
Westf. 411503462
merrie 1962

XX/OX percentage: 11,72%

FIRNSCHNEE
Westf. 410153857
hengst 1957 bruin
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 17,19%

Ancestors of Wanja:
WEINGAU
Hann 310396754
hengst 1954 bruin 1.64m
ggk: Hann

XX/OX percentage: 23,44%

ATTACKE
Hann 316623162
merrie 1962

XX/OX percentage: 32,81%

KURSUS
Hann 310401857
hengst 1957 bruin 1.63m
ggk: Hann

XX/OX percentage: 57,03%

WUNSCHMADEL
Hann 316868400
merrie 1965

XX/OX percentage: 12,50%

DIRIGENT
Westf. 410174365
hengst 1965 vos
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 27,34%

FLORA
Westf. 411568864 Staatsprämie
merrie 1964

XX/OX percentage: 11,33%

FRUHLINGSTRAUM II
Westf. 410183268
hengst 1968 vos 1.68m
ggk: Westf.

XX/OX percentage: 15,23%

ROMULA
Westf. DE341411706667 Hauptstutbuch
merrie 1967 vos

XX/OX percentage: 23,44%

Ancestors of FLOCKE
Westf. 411473561
merrie 1961

XX/OX percentage: 9,96%

FERMOR III
Hann 310321637
hengst 1937 bruin 1.60m
ggk: Hann

XX/OX percentage: 58,40%

ADAGINDA
Hann 311716224 Hauptstutbuch
merrie 1924 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 48,63%

FESCH
Hann 310312535
hengst 1935 donkerbruin 1.63m
ggk: Hann

XX/OX percentage: 54,49%

MORENA
Westf. 410265534 Staatsprämie
merrie 1934

XX/OX percentage: 32,23%

ELMUND
Old 330364938
hengst 1938 bruin
ggk: Old

XX/OX percentage: 4,30%

LEVIGA II
Old 334932836
merrie 1936 zwart

XX/OX percentage: 1,56%

CERA
Old 334373829
merrie 1929 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 0,78%

Ancestors of SCHWALBE
Westf. 410884646
merrie 1946 zwart

XX/OX percentage: 8,20%

SCHWOF I
Hann 310266215
hengst 1915 zwart
ggk: Hann

XX/OX percentage: 58,79

NARWATA
Hann
merrie 1915

XX/OX percentage: 29,30%

FLUEGELMANN I
Hann 310109029
hengst 1929 bruin 1.67m
ggk: Hann

XX/OX percentage: 54,10%

Leviga II:
GERBER
Old 330251212Old
hengst 1912 donkerbruin
ggk: Old

XX/OX percentage: 9,96%

EDELPALME
Old 332022512
merrie 1912 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 8,98%

GIDO
Old 330214608
hengst 1908 bruin
ggk: Old

XX/OX percentage: 7,03%

HERZENDAME II
Old 332028912
merrie 1912 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 13,28%

SIGISMUND
Old 330332518 Prämienhengst
hengst 1918 vos
ggk: Old

Ter dekking 1921-1938.
XX/OX percentage: 9,96%

SCHATZCHEN II
Old 332684115
merrie 1915 vos

XX/OX percentage: 10,35%

RAEUBER (RAUBER)
Old 330245011
hengst 1911 donkerbruin
ggk: Old

XX/OX percentage: 12,30%

LEVANTINE
Old 331338401
merrie 1901 bruin

XX/OX percentage: 5,86%

Pictures of ancestors of Donna: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=donna20&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

[omare]

I think what we dont know is whether the WB now is a set type or will it sometime in the future need another infusion of xx. The very blooded WB is still a modern breed.it has not been around as that more refined type for as long as the xx, arab etc.

[grayarabpony]

Not all are modern though. When I go to a show I still see quite a lot of old-fashioned looking horses. Not only do they look old-fashioned, they appear to be old-fashioned warmblood rides too.

[_Tradewind]

Sigh. What is the purpose of your last (extremely long) post, Elles?

[stoicfish]

If you go back to Tb gene pool 300 years ago, I would say they started with a much smaller pool to start with and closed the book. They started with 3 stallions and some local mares, thought to also be Arabs?

While the Bedouins maintained a strict registry of the breed in order to maintain its purity, the first Thoroughbred “Stud Book” was created and maintained by James Weatherby in 1791, almost some 100 years following the importation of the three foundation stallions. His General Stud Book listed the pedigrees of over 350 mares. Each of these mares could trace their beginnings back to ECLIPSE - a descendent of the Darley Arabian, MATCHEM - a grandson of the Godolphin Arabian or HEROD - a great grandson of the Byerly Turk. Weatherby’s General Stud Book is still published and maintained by Weatherby and Sons in England.

Someone that is better acquainted can correct this but that is a fairly small pool to start with.
We do not need to continue to add Arab blood as it would kill the running times of top Tb’s. And in the same train of thought…

I think if an exceptional Tb sire came forward that had a really decent jump, along with the rest of the package, it could benefit some mares for sure. But that stallion is in competition with all the Wb stallions out there right now.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8059604]
If you have a goal of producing purple, you mix blue and red. Once you have purple, you do not keep adding red. Only if you have some paint that is still a bit on the blue side do you need the red.

Tb’s were critical in producing the modern showjumper, that is not questioned. They are the “red” that was needed. The issue is that once you have a genetically suited animal, adding the products that created it in the first place sets you back.
You wouldn’t want to add a Holsteiner mare from the 60’s either to produce a modern showjumper. She could produce a good horse but probably not one that would out perform a top modern day mare. And the 60’s mare would probably need a Tb.

There can be an intelligent discussion about the genetic pool of Sj’s and what Tb genetics can bring, but they will not improve on the results of the top Show jumping breeding stock. They may improve some Wb’s that do not have enough blood as the Wb population is anything but homogeneous. There may be some older type mares that can benefit but that is different than saying Tb’s are going to improve the best of Show jumpers.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if you have a goal of producing purple, you NEED pure BLUE and pure RED of very specific pigments.
Or all the right genes in the right combinations if you are breeding.

Continuing to mix variously origin ‘purple’ appearing pigment will give… MUD. Sadly.

This is why you need selection for performance every gneeration or you lose the superior genes you are trying to conserve.

And if you seem to be ‘going blue’ then you will more quickly get back to a good purple by adding pure RED.

Always assuming you are ‘going blue’. if not, then paint on.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8059876]
If you go back to Tb gene pool 300 years ago, I would say they started with a much smaller pool to start with and closed the book. They started with 3 stallions and some local mares, thought to also be Arabs?

Someone that is better acquainted can correct this but that is a fairly small pool to start with.
We do not need to continue to add Arab blood as it would kill the running times of top Tb’s. And in the same train of thought…

I think if an exceptional Tb sire came forward that had a really decent jump, along with the rest of the package, it could benefit some mares for sure. But that stallion is in competition with all the Wb stallions out there right now.[/QUOTE]

Nobody else is talking about opening the TB book back up to Arabians. Apples and oranges.

My understanding is that those foundation sires were crossed both with horses of native breeding in Britain and horses that had some Arab blood, some of it far back.

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/7/2/316

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8059876]
If you go back to Tb gene pool 300 years ago, I would say they started with a much smaller pool to start with and closed the book. They started with 3 stallions and some local mares, thought to also be Arabs?

Someone that is better acquainted can correct this but that is a fairly small pool to start with.
We do not need to continue to add Arab blood as it would kill the running times of top Tb’s. And in the same train of thought…

I think if an exceptional Tb sire came forward that had a really decent jump, along with the rest of the package, it could benefit some mares for sure. But that stallion is in competition with all the Wb stallions out there right now.[/QUOTE]

Those are the remaining topline males and tail females, and I’m not sure you are including the ‘american’ dam lines later included in the Studbook. Regardless, there were many more individuals that have descendants still in the registry, just not tail-male and tail-female.

If it comes to that, I believe there are very few non-TB tail male lines left in the various European WBs.

[Jackie_Cochran]

The English General Stud Book TB stud book DID open its registry to Arabs, Barbs, and Turkomen for a few decades, this is why all the Blunt/Crabbet Arabians have GSB as their registry. This experiment ended after a few decades because speed was lost. As far as adding speed and jumping ability this experiment ended up in failure.

From recent research I’ve read the speed genes of the TB came from the “native” English mares (they found the speed genes in the Shetland Pony, of all places), and NOT from the Arab blood, the Barb blood or the Turkomen blood, even though these breeds were considered faster than equivalent horses of other breeds when they came to England.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8059639]
Yes, but is the warmblood jumping genetic pool large enough to interbreed indefinitely? (Not only that, do enough of them have enough blood traits to keep them strong in the population? When I watched the WEG in Jerez I noticed several of the top dressage and jumping horses getting very tired before the end of the competition.)

If it is, great. If not then the registries need to look to outside sources that can jump 1.6m courses. Now they are turning to SFs. TBs are also a likely choice, given their recent competition history. It’s just too bad more aren’t purpose bred for jumping – the point that so-called “TB jihadists” have been trying to make.[/QUOTE]

This has to be the most un-informed statement I’ve ever heard.

Of course they get tired before the end of competition at the World Equestrian Games. This one of the biggest championships in the world and it is very grueling ! I just read where Rolf said it took Casall 2 1/2 months to recover from it.

Every time you start typing you just let the world know exactly what your knowledge level is.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8059917]
Nobody’s talking about opening the TB book back up to Arabians. Apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]

TBs started with far more imported stallions than three. It’s just that over the first two centuries, the only sire lines that survived came from three horses, Matcham (Godolphin Arabian, now thought to be a Barb), Herod (The Byerly Turk), and Eclipse (Darley Arabian). The mares are thought to be a mixture of speedy local racing mares and imports. It’s thought that the major addition to the GSB was the allowance of non-GSB lines from racing horses from other countries.

TB studbooks were opened to Arabians at various points. The Jockey Club was open to Arabians until sometime in the 1940’s; the GSB opened in the late 1800s or early 1900s for a short period due in part to Lady Wentworth’s pressure. Over the long haul, neither had much effect on the populations.

But you have to remember that the TB as we know it was “created” about 225 years ago or so; until the GSB started in 1798 (0r 1789) and enrolled horses, there were still outside crosses being made and used. That process had been going on since the time of King Charles II at least, so over 150 years before Weatherby plucked horses from successful racers and put them (and their pedigrees) in his book. WBs don’t have 150 years of trial and error behind them yet today. Nor do they have 200 years of selective breeding since they became what they are today.

In fact, there are still outside crosses being made and used in racing, both jumps and a very few flat, in much of the rest of the world. There is a procedure for entering the TB studbooks in much of the world which is very rarely used. The non-pure horse has to have eight generations of TB studbook horses after the outsider and has to meet certain racing requirements.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8059897]
Actually, if you have a goal of producing purple, you NEED pure BLUE and pure RED of very specific pigments.
Or all the right genes in the right combinations if you are breeding.

Continuing to mix variously origin ‘purple’ appearing pigment will give… MUD. Sadly.

This is why you need selection for performance every gneeration or you lose the superior genes you are trying to conserve.

And if you seem to be ‘going blue’ then you will more quickly get back to a good purple by adding pure RED.

Always assuming you are ‘going blue’. if not, then paint on.[/QUOTE]

You are just as bad as GAP…you would argue with a stump. It’s ridiculous…

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8059989]
This has to be the most un-informed statement I’ve ever heard.

Of course they get tired before the end of competition at the World Equestrian Games. This one of the biggest championships in the world and it is very grueling ! I just read where Rolf said it took Casall 2 1/2 months to recover from it.

Every time you start typing you just let the world know exactly what your knowledge level is.[/QUOTE]

If the horses have more blood traits they would very likely not get as exhausted, or need very long recovery times. Exhaustion can cause the horse to lose competitions.

My post wasn’t uninformed. Do you have anything of actual value to post to this thread? If so post it.

Heck, Dr. Nissen still wants to add more TB blood to the Holsteiners. I’ll take his word over yours, thanks.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8059989]
This has to be the most un-informed statement I’ve ever heard.

Of course they get tired before the end of competition at the World Equestrian Games. This one of the biggest championships in the world and it is very grueling ! I just read where Rolf said it took Casall 2 1/2 months to recover from it.

Every time you start typing you just let the world know exactly what your knowledge level is.[/QUOTE]

If the horses has more blood traits they would very likely not get as exhausted, or have very long recovery times. Exhaustion can cause the horse to lose competitions.

My post wasn’t uninformed. Do you have anything of actual value to post to this thread? If so post it.

Heck, Dr. Nissen still wants to add more TB blood to the Holsteiners. I’ll take his word over yours, thanks.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8059990]
TBs started with far more imported stallions than three. It’s just that over the first two centuries, the only sire lines that survived came from three horses, Matcham (Godolphin Arabian, now thought to be a Barb), Herod (The Byerly Turk), and Eclipse (Darley Arabian). The mares are thought to be a mixture of speedy local racing mares and imports. It’s thought that the major addition to the GSB was the allowance of non-GSB lines from other colonies in racing horses.

TB studbooks were opened to Arabians at various points. The Jockey Club was open to Arabians until sometime in the 1940’s; the GSB opened in the late 1800s or early 1900s for a short period due in part to Lady Wentworth’s pressure. Over the long haul, neither had much effect on the populations.

But you have to remember that the TB as we know it was “created” about 225 years ago or so; until the GSB started in 1798 (0r 1789) and enrolled horses, there were still outside crosses being made and used. That process had been going on since the time of King Charles II at least, so over 150 years before Weatherby plucked horses from successful racers and put them (and their pedigrees) in his book. WBs don’t have 150 years of trial and error behind them yet today. Nor do they have 200 years of selective breeding since they became what they are today.

In fact, there are still outside crosses being made and used in racing, both jumps and a very few flat, in much of the rest of the world. There is a procedure for entering the TB studbooks in much of the world which is very rarely used. The non-pure horse has to have eight generations of TB studbook horses after the outsider and has to meet certain racing requirements.[/QUOTE]

Thank you viney.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8059992]
You are just as bad as GAP…you would argue with a stump. It’s ridiculous…[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the compliment. You might as well put me on ignore, now.

I look forward to your 1.6m jumper performance production -or ‘pudding’ as you call it.

‘Looks like it might become pudding’, ‘approved to be pudding ingredient’ isn’t quite the same thing.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8060245]
Thanks for the compliment. You might as well put me on ignore, now.

I look forward to your 1.6m jumper performance production -or ‘pudding’ as you call it.

‘Looks like it might become pudding’, ‘approved to be pudding ingredient’ isn’t quite the same thing.[/QUOTE]

Says the non breeder , non competitor.

You’re right , I haven’t produced a 1.60 meter horse yet but I can guarantee you one thing…I’m a whole lot closer to it than you are.

Until you know what I do…don’t pretend that you do.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8059990]

But you have to remember that the TB as we know it was “created” about 225 years ago or so; until the GSB started in 1798 (0r 1789) and enrolled horses, there were still outside crosses being made and used. That process had been going on since the time of King Charles II at least, so over 150 years before Weatherby plucked horses from successful racers and put them (and their pedigrees) in his book. WBs don’t have 150 years of trial and error behind them yet today. Nor do they have 200 years of selective breeding since they became what they are today.

In fact, there are still outside crosses being made and used in racing, both jumps and a very few flat, in much of the rest of the world. There is a procedure for entering the TB studbooks in much of the world which is very rarely used. The non-pure horse has to have eight generations of TB studbook horses after the outsider and has to meet certain racing requirements.[/QUOTE]

I’ve read about SF horses with a great deal of TB blood (now registered under AQPS) competing and winning in steeplechase.

Neptune Collonges : http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/horse-racing/17453652

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1539157

Pineau de Re: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/apr/05/pineau-de-re-grand-national-aintree

http://www.horsetelex.fr/horses/pedigree/1626049

[Elles]

What can we conclude from this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVcpqiiDRr8