New decision in Holstein

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8056682]
Hi you all!

If I could be permitted to ask a Holstein question that everyone else probably knows the answer to.

Why was the Ethelbert sire line allowed to die out?

I am beginning to believe that this sire line contributed something that may have avoided the TB-Holst. F1 genetic incompatibility, something that may not have been passed to his daughters. Of course I could well be wrong, I don’t know much about the Holstein breed. But to me dropping the Ethelbert sire line sort of looks similar to what would happen if the Morgan breed dropped the Justin Morgan sire line. Yeah, the horses may be more “ideal”, but the Ethelbert sire line seemed to define the Holstein breed, just like Justin Morgan defined the Morgan breed, making it different from all others.[/QUOTE]

:confused::confused:

This I don’t understand, and I don’t think that it’s ME…

http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?72349-Springmanier-Vollblut/page3

  1. Zitat von sporthorses100
    Mit Veredeln meine ich Spritzigkeit, Schnelligkeit und für den Amateur- Markt auch nicht unwichtig: Aussehen.
    Und was ist mit Sensibilität, Vorsichtigkeit, Nerv, Gesundheit, Haltbarkeit? Ohne Vollblut werden das stumpfe Böcke, die zwar Vermögen und Manier haben, aber keine erfolgreichen Springpferde im Parcours sind. Mein Lieblingsbeispiel: Der komplett blutlose Wanderer, dessen Nachkommen zwar immer in jungen Jahren beim Freispringen glänzten, im Sport aber nie was gerissen haben.

Davon abgesehen, werden Springpferde genauso gemacht wie auch die Dressurpferde im großen Sport … wenn die Vorrausetzungen stimmen. Es laufen viele Pferde rum, die auch zu groesseren Aufgaben fähig gewesen wären, aber nie in die richtigen Hände gelangt sind.

Translation:

  1. Quote of sporthorses100
    With bloodhorse I mean liveliness, speed and for the amateur market also not unimportant:: appearance / looks.

And what about sensitivity, caution, nerve health, durability? Without blood you will have blunt bucks that have scope and manner / technique, but are not successful show jumping horses in the course. My favorite example: The completely bloodless Wanderer, whose offspring still at a young age in free jumping shone, but never have performed anything in sport.

Apart from that, jumping horses are made as well as the dressage horses in the large sports… If the conditions are right. Many horses running around who would have been able also to larger tasks, but never arrived in the right hands.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8052016]
The objective data regarding free jumping heritability speaks for itself as has already been posted at length elsewhere in this “TB debate.” Here’s a snipet from a post of mine regarding Heraldik, arguably one of the best contemporary TB stallions for show jumping.[/QUOTE]

For the Holsteiner’s, Heraldik’s breeding value for freejumping is 74 (data from 2013), more than a full standard deviation below average.

This is what the KWPN does, I do not know if it is the same with the German studbooks:

Breeding values are calculated using three different groups of information: information about a horse’s sire and dam (plus all relatives), information about the horse itself, and information about the horse’s offspring. This last source of information is by far the most important for obtaining a breeding value, as it clarifies the traits which can be passed on to offspring with respect to genetic ability.
If information is available only on a horse’s sire and dam – as is often the case with young horses – an expected breeding value is calculated. A horse’s expected breeding value is the average breeding value of its sire and dam. If there is no breeding value for the dam, then in most cases the pedigree index is used. Genetic ability can be estimated using the breeding values of a horse’s sire, dam’s sire, and dam’s dam’s sire.
Once horses age three and older have established a performance record or data has been compiled on their offspring, breeding values can be calculated. Breeding values for sport traits are based on sport standings derived from the Dutch Equestrian Federation (KNHS) and the Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI), in addition to scores obtained from ability tests and studbook recordings. Breeding values for conformation, movement, and jumping traits are based on data gathered from linear score forms completed when a horse is presented for studbook acceptance. The breeding value for OC health is based on the OC offspring inspection for stallions and calculated based on the performance of 20 specially selected yearlings.

Interesting article: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2013/01/german-breeding-values-what-do-they-mean/

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8057578]
Interesting article: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2013/01/german-breeding-values-what-do-they-mean/[/QUOTE]

And this is why they are only a tool that you can glean information from. At the end of the day where offspring are concerned…the proof is in the taste of the pudding.

More about Heraldik:

“Heraldik xx is one of those very rare stallions who has had offspring compete at the highest levels in all three disciplines. Currently Herald jumps for Spain every week in the Super League, whilst his eventing offspring include Olympic Gold medallist Butts Abraxas, Butts Leon who came 2nd at Badminton in 2010 and Happytimes who won Chatsworth in 2010. One of Heraldik’s offspring also competed in the European Dressage Championships in 2009 at Windsor.”

http://www.thestallioncompany.com/stallion_detail.php?stallion=2007031

He died 10 years ago, so unless there is frozen available one would have to go to one of his warmblood sons. I don’t see a TB son on horse telex.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8057578]
Interesting article: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2013/01/german-breeding-values-what-do-they-mean/[/QUOTE]

The article you reference is written by Chris Hector, a known critic, about the German FN breeding values. The German FN breeding values are different from those compiled by the Hanoverians or the Holsteiners. The breeding values I reference are those compiled by the Hanoverians and/or the Holsteiners.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/10/sinaeda/
an article mentioning the Ethelbert sire line - (1874 model!) through dam line of Sineada. I’ve seen Sineada mostly in the mare lines.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8057670]
An article written by Chris Hector, a known critic, about the German FN breeding values which are different from those compiled by the Hanoverians or the Holsteiners, which I referenced.[/QUOTE]

Where did you reference that article? Never mind, I found it:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?458204-New-The-Horse-Magazine-article-onthis-year-s-FN-breeding-values

How are German FN breeding values different from those compiled by the Hanoverian and Holsteiner registries?

About the Ethelbert sire line. What got me interested in this particular sire line was the quality shown by the daughters of Heidelburg 884, of the Ethelbert sire line.

Going through the “Holsteiner Stutenstamme” book I had great fun, and I found myself stopping to look at some of the pictures more closely. There were two mares I REALLY liked among the older pictures, and one was a daughter of Heidelburg (884), Piave H 2725/56. The other two Heidelburg (884) daughters pictured did not look too bad either. These mares looked like they had the refinement the modern Holsteiners seem to be seeking. The picture of Piave’s daughter Elki HSP 4453/68, by Ladykiller xx showed a lot less refinement. I am sure that she had many good qualities added by Ladykiller xx, but refinement was not one of them (at least from what I can see in the pictures.) This mare got me looking at pictures of the Ethelbert sire line stallions, and I noticed in the book that several of the mare lines had generations crossed to Ethelbert sire line stallions. Many of these stallions that I found pictures for were impressive horses. It just got me wondering why this excellent sire line that did so much for the Holstein breed was dropped. Idle curiosity I guess.

On another subject, as for the genetic influence being wiped out through the generations, that is not necessarily so. The other mare I REALLY liked was Irmtrud HSP 1462/50, who clearly showed her five really distant crosses to Amurath, A (aka Amurath II, Shagya Arab), 5 crosses, 6, 7, 7, 9, & 9 generations back. She was of such Arab “character” in her conformation that I immediately knew who I would have crossed her to, the Arabian stallion *Bask (yeah, wrong time period, I know.) As it turns out *Bask’s dam was of the same sire line as Amurath, A, [Balalajka (dam of *Bask) was sired by Amurath Sahib, by “35 Amurath II”, by Amurath 1881; Amurath 1881 was also the sire of Amurath II, Shagya Arab, the stallion that Irmtrud is very distantly line bred to.] Long live Amurath 1881 way, way back in the pedigree!

Please forgive the questions of an Arabian fanatic about your impressive horses’ breeding!

As for sire lines, I think that the Amurath 1881 sire line still exists in a thin pure Arab line in Russia (I’m not sure about Poland or Germany). Does the Ethelbert sire line exist anywhere nowadays (stallions whose sire line goes to Ethelbert)?

Houston, we have a problem.
GrayArabPony finds it impossible to have an intelligent or meaningful conversation with ANYONE! Yes, a good debate is always interesting. But, it seems like GAP is incapable of that and always resorts to insults, rudeness, and inflammatory remarks. See below for about a weeks’ worth of these remarks, cut and pasted straight from Chronicle of the Horse Forums.

All you do is say the same thing over and over, and it’s not even accurate. Squawk!
I’m going to use the word nonsense when it applies, Dispatcher. Including when it applies to you.
Great. You could have done that without posting on the thread.
Apparently you didn’t read my post, Bluey, or understand it.
I don’t care if you have a headache. I have a right to respond. If you don’t like my posts then don’t read them
Wow, that was pure speculation. Congratulations.
You’re not one of those VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE people
Somehow bayhawk you always manage to make these threads about you
Oh brother. THAT is complete and total nonsense and shows a lack of understanding of Obama and world affairs.
I’m going to put you on ignore. You’re just too annoying
Your husband needs to take responsibility for his problems and seek help. It may take some effort to find the right medication but there’s a good chance he can find one that will help him.
Considering how insulting you’ve been to me
Midge, apparently in addition to insulting people, you don’t even know what you are talking about
I’m the bitchy one?
I have seen videos of Bayhawk’s horses and wasn’t exactly overwhelmed
You just don’t like the answers apparently
Yes, you definitely “misinterpreted” what I wrote, especially since I didn’t write anything of the sort. Ie, you didn’t misinterpret what I wrote, you made something up.
the premise of your post completely misses the mark, as happens very frequently on this forum
What I find so hypocritical about the situation and many of the posters, including you
Your viewpoint is so skewed
Wow. This whole post is pure bunk
You keep using the word nonsense. Newsflash, you don’t seem to know what it means.
G I wondered because you’ve given some faulty legal advice on this forum.
Yeah, you’re sorry all right.:rolleyes
You don’t appear to be very interested in facts
It’s much easier to kill…
You did make up that scenario. But hey, don’t let that stop you.
There’s really only way to spin something like that.
I wasn’t rude to you when I responded to your post
Ever heard of a metaphor?
Please, I am not the one grasping at straws. That’s absurd
Are you and Baby Goose really this blind? Amazing, and not in a good way.
And your point is?
How many times do I have to say it?
My bad for looking at one of your posts again.
unsubstantiated bunk
LOL, intentional ignorance now that is hilarious, LOL
Good Lord. You really love falsely accusing people don’t you? I haven’t backtracked from anything. That’s at least the third falsehood you’ve come up with.
I’m not the one having a hissy fit over…
You really need to stop making up crap
Seriously? OK I’ll post it again.
I’m not disingenuous. You are, and you owe me an apology. Your behavior on this thread is ridiculous.
So it’s OK for you to insult people? How hypocritical of you.
I don’t know why you can’t comprehend
No, you made that up too.
I have nothing but contempt for your kind of attitude
You completely made that up
If you could see…
I wasn’t nasty about it. That’s just a made-up excuse on your part.
You accuse others of being nasty yet you name call all of the time.
I’m just going to put you on ignore now because I don’t…
Apparently you cannot answer a simple question. You just do a lot of hand waving and name calling.
Your post would be funny if it weren’t for the subject matter.
Your post makes little sense, but here goes.
Logic fail on your part.
Do you ever address something without inaccurate hyperbole?
You could do with being less condescending/ falsifying yourself.
Many things bayhawk has posted over the years have actually kind of been laughable. But I guess you and he don’t know what you don’t know.
Poor, poor bayhawk. His behavior isn’t his fault. Insert…
As I’ve said to someone else, the world doesn’t revolve around you
I think you are too busy making ass-umptions and putting words in my mouth to comprehend my posts.
Bayhawk you know very little about TBs and yet you keep yapping on and on about them.
You’re having a logic fail again. You should see someone about that.
You’re like talking to a brick wall.
Another strawman argument.
Ah yes, there’s always an emoticon when you don’t have a good answer. Lol
You seem to have a problem with logic…
That is insane
And the point of my post went whoosh! right over your head.
How is that a bigoted view?

Some thoughts for GrayArabPony:
• Have you always been a bully? Do you even know what that means? :D?
• When did it start? Second grade???
• Have you ever tried talking to people without being rude or insulting?
• I love Arabians, but you give them a very bad name. I like gray horses too! Have you ever thought of some other names? Some suggestions:
o BlackThoroughbredHag
o GreenEyedWillie
o BrownNosedJack#%$
o YellowBelliedInsulter
o CarrotTopNag

GAP, you may not like this post, but to quote yourself:
• You’re like talking to a brick wall.
• You don’t appear to be interested in the facts.
• You just don’t like answers apparently.
• You seem to have a problem with logic.
• The world doesn’t revolve around you.
• I’m the bitchy one?

Best wishes and hope you get some help.

Oh my Spiderman…you owe me a new macbook as I just spewed my beer all over it !

Great post !

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8058342]
About the Ethelbert sire line. What got me interested in this particular sire line was the quality shown by the daughters of Heidelburg 884, of the Ethelbert sire line.

Going through the “Holsteiner Stutenstamme” book I had great fun, and I found myself stopping to look at some of the pictures more closely. There were two mares I REALLY liked among the older pictures, and one was a daughter of Heidelburg (884), Piave H 2725/56. The other two Heidelburg (884) daughters pictured did not look too bad either. These mares looked like they had the refinement the modern Holsteiners seem to be seeking. The picture of Piave’s daughter Elki HSP 4453/68, by Ladykiller xx showed a lot less refinement. I am sure that she had many good qualities added by Ladykiller xx, but refinement was not one of them (at least from what I can see in the pictures.) This mare got me looking at pictures of the Ethelbert sire line stallions, and I noticed in the book that several of the mare lines had generations crossed to Ethelbert sire line stallions. Many of these stallions that I found pictures for were impressive horses. It just got me wondering why this excellent sire line that did so much for the Holstein breed was dropped. Idle curiosity I guess.

On another subject, as for the genetic influence being wiped out through the generations, that is not necessarily so. The other mare I REALLY liked was Irmtrud HSP 1462/50, who clearly showed her five really distant crosses to Amurath, A (aka Amurath II, Shagya Arab), 5 crosses, 6, 7, 7, 9, & 9 generations back. She was of such Arab “character” in her conformation that I immediately knew who I would have crossed her to, the Arabian stallion *Bask (yeah, wrong time period, I know.) As it turns out *Bask’s dam was of the same sire line as Amurath, A, [Balalajka (dam of *Bask) was sired by Amurath Sahib, by “35 Amurath II”, by Amurath 1881; Amurath 1881 was also the sire of Amurath II, Shagya Arab, the stallion that Irmtrud is very distantly line bred to.] Long live Amurath 1881 way, way back in the pedigree!

Please forgive the questions of an Arabian fanatic about your impressive horses’ breeding!

As for sire lines, I think that the Amurath 1881 sire line still exists in a thin pure Arab line in Russia (I’m not sure about Poland or Germany). Does the Ethelbert sire line exist anywhere nowadays (stallions whose sire line goes to Ethelbert)?[/QUOTE]

You have a good eye Jackie…the approved stallion I bred was by Roller Coaster / Cantus / Ladykiller xx / Fasching / Heidelberg stamm 569. Yes…Piave is the Heidelberg mare !

We agree that certain Holsteiner stallions cross well on French mares. Very happy with our Indoctro-Riverman-Galoubet A filly last year and who is our second F2 generation filly. Mylord Cathargo is a fine example at the international level of a hybrid Holsteiner/SF. The Capitol line stallions do especially well.

http://www.rimondo.com/horse-pictures/54982/Piave/147029/

Thank you for finding that other picture of Piave.

The main reason I said that Piave showed her Arab blood is the fact that Piave has a “mitbah”. The “mitbah” is the Arabian upper neck/jowl/top of skull complex. The windpipe comes into the head with a slight curve to between the jowl bones, and the top of the crest going into the poll is just a little bit longer.

The other reason that I was impressed with this mare is that she does not have the smaller knee, hock, and cannon bones that often go with this refined neck in non-Arab horses. The stallion I would have wanted to breed her to, *Bask, would probably have helped strengthen her loin and croup, and added some refinement to the head.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=366527&blood=10&quota=
Holstein Foundation Sire by a Thoroughbred. Thoroughbreds have been used on the Holsteiner mares for the last 200 years.

[QUOTE=Elles;8059499]
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=366527&blood=10"a=
Holstein Foundation Sire by a Thoroughbred. Thoroughbreds have been used on the Holsteiner mares for the last 200 years.[/QUOTE]

Elles…please tell us something we don’t already know.

[QUOTE=Elles;8059499]
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=366527&blood=10"a=
Holstein Foundation Sire by a Thoroughbred. Thoroughbreds have been used on the Holsteiner mares for the last 200 years.[/QUOTE]

If you have a goal of producing purple, you mix blue and red. Once you have purple, you do not keep adding red. Only if you have some paint that is still a bit on the blue side do you need the red.

Tb’s were critical in producing the modern showjumper, that is not questioned. They are the “red” that was needed. The issue is that once you have a genetically suited animal, adding the products that created it in the first place sets you back.
You wouldn’t want to add a Holsteiner mare from the 60’s either to produce a modern showjumper. She could produce a good horse but probably not one that would out perform a top modern day mare. And the 60’s mare would probably need a Tb.

There can be an intelligent discussion about the genetic pool of Sj’s and what Tb genetics can bring, but they will not improve on the results of the top Show jumping breeding stock. They may improve some Wb’s that do not have enough blood as the Wb population is anything but homogeneous. There may be some older type mares that can benefit but that is different than saying Tb’s are going to improve the best of Show jumpers.