Thanks for posting that Elles!
[QUOTE=Elles;8061267]
What can we conclude from this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVcpqiiDRr8[/QUOTE]
What is evident by this is that the jumping of most of these horses is horrendous by todays standards. Most do not open their pelvis and hip and would not be able to cope with todays top tracks.
This is exactly why one should never breed backwards in time. You should only breed with horses that are capable of doing or producing the qualities for todays sport.
^^
I could well be wrong. I got the impression that the above horses were perfectly willing to jump higher (more daylight between belly & the top rail) if it meant that they did not have to bend their knee & hock joints as much, but that they were capable of bending those joints later in the rounds as they got more tired, and cleared the top rail with a lot less daylight showing.
I think one reason that the US open jumpers often looked to infusions of colder blood in jumper stock was to increase the width of the knee and hock joints since the wider joints can take the repeated trauma better than thinner knee and hock joints.
I have noticed a worrying (to me) decrease in the width of the TB knee and hock joints over the decades. It may hurt these horses more to go over the BIG jumps repeatedly compared to earlier TBs. JMHO, for what it is worth. Horses who anticipating hurting upon landing tend to be reluctant to jump the big jumps.
^^
I could well be wrong. I got the impression that the above horses were perfectly willing to jump higher (more daylight between belly & the top rail) if it meant that they did not have to bend their knee & hock joints as much, but that they were capable of bending those joints later in the rounds as they got more tired, and cleared the top rail with a lot less daylight showing.
I think one reason that the US open jumpers often looked to infusions of colder blood in jumper stock was to increase the width of the knee and hock joints since the wider joints can take the repeated trauma better than thinner knee and hock joints.
I have noticed a worrying (to me) decrease in the width of the TB knee and hock joints over the decades. It may hurt these horses more to go over the BIG jumps repeatedly compared to earlier TBs. JMHO, for what it is worth. Horses who anticipating hurting upon landing tend to be reluctant to jump the big jumps.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8061397]
^^
I could well be wrong. I got the impression that the above horses were perfectly willing to jump higher (more daylight between belly & the top rail) if it meant that they did not have to bend their knee & hock joints as much, but that they were capable of bending those joints later in the rounds as they got more tired, and cleared the top rail with a lot less daylight showing.
I think one reason that the US open jumpers often looked to infusions of colder blood in jumper stock was to increase the width of the knee and hock joints since the wider joints can take the repeated trauma better than thinner knee and hock joints.
I have noticed a worrying (to me) decrease in the width of the TB knee and hock joints over the decades. It may hurt these horses more to go over the BIG jumps repeatedly compared to earlier TBs. JMHO, for what it is worth. Horses who anticipating hurting upon landing tend to be reluctant to jump the big jumps.[/QUOTE]
Watch most of the horses tuck/draw their hind legs up underneath themselves instead of opening their pelvis and rotating up and out.
We still see horses like these and they are most of the time immediately sold off somewhere because you can’t jump big classes today if you tuck/draw up the hind legs.
Elles, thanks for posting that! Fun to watch those experts (both equine and human). Some of those fences were really huge–up to 1.8+m in the 1968 Olympics (compared to 1.6m max height for today’s courses). IMHO, there’s no question whether those horses could jump, regardless of whether they were folding or tucking or whatever. I also enjoyed watching the footage of Rodney Jenkins motoring around some of those tight roll-backs. thanks again.
You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcJq2VEnMVI
-Probably not.
Most of the GP I see nowadays the horses DO have the HQ action you note. On the other hand most of them don’t seem to have the extra ‘rocket’ to get them up quicker vertical takeoff on the really big jumps.
But no matter the style, this or that is simply unimportant in the ring - if you win.
I won’t ask why you can’t jump ‘big classes’ today with that sort of jump; clearly the horses jumping 30-40 years ago were jumping bigger classes than today without it.
Ah, I am beginning to understand. I looked at several Holstein inspection videos, concentrating on the loin and croup during the jump.
I had been noticing horses starting to do what I termed “kicking back” as the hind legs go over the fence.
I can pretty confidently say that I never saw a TB jumping like that over a “minor” fence, up to say 4 ft. or 41/2 ft. However I have seen it, the TB Huaso going over 8’1" did both that and sort of a twist to clear that fence. I think I’ve seen in some in old Puissance footage. Anyway, I’ve never seen a TB do anything like that over a fence that they can confidently “overjump”.
TBs have been bred for speed. Keeping the backbone more or less rigid helps add to the speed. No, you are not going to find TBs with this type of backbone very often. If you do I suggest you make allowances for things like height, top-line, beauty, tail carriage, gaits, etc… If a TB has it grab that TB and run. According to what you WB breeders have been saying and remembering every TB I’ve seen jumping, it just is not common within the breed, though it can happen over the HIGHEST jumps. You may have to compromise about a lot of other things that you have in your selection criteria. Otherwise you will return to your old “the TB kills the jump” problem.
I do have a question though. Did the Holstein horse have this particular movement of the loin/croup clearing the hind legs over the jump before Cor de la Bryere was brought into the breed?
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8061873]
TBs have been bred for speed. Keeping the backbone more or less rigid helps add to the speed. [/QUOTE]
Actually, flexibility in the spine helps increase the speed (kind of like a spring), at least in cheetahs, the fastest land animals. Here’s a National Geographic video that explains it, with beautiful slow-motion footage. They even refer to horses.
http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/media/cheetah-speed/?ar_a=1
Of course, getting a cheetah to jump a Grand Prix course might be a bit of a challenge…!
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8061784]
I won’t ask why you can’t jump ‘big classes’ today with that sort of jump; clearly the horses jumping 30-40 years ago were jumping bigger classes than today without it.[/QUOTE]
If you listened to the audio of that video, George Morris points out (~5:40ish) that the courses back then were not “technical nor delicate like you see today.” The courses of today take a different horse than the courses of that era.
Philco’s style looked rather good.
https://www.google.com/search?q=philco+jumping+jumper+broome&hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&oq=&gs_l=
Stroller was a TB/Connemara cross I think?
http://www.showjumpingnostalgia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Marion-Coakes-Stroller-Mexico-68-oxer.jpg
Jaguar Mail by Hand in Glove xx was not a bad horse:
http://www.hippomundo.co.uk/competitions/index/43964
http://www.equisoftware.com.ar/tdirsitio/sga_interno.php?sitio=HLM&sga_idioma=&sitiousuario=&opcionficha=ModHLM&idcaballo=527936
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2011/03/breeding-values-a-survey-of-the-major-stud-books/
The result is perhaps an indication of one of the weaknesses of the FN’s system of calculation, where so much weight is given to the stallion’s own performance and that of his close relatives. It is a formula that consistently gives very high breeding values to young stallions with few or no progeny in competition. The formula used by the Hanoverian Verband which is based on the results of tests on the stallion’s progeny (studbook inspections, mare tests, auction evaluations) is somewhat more cautious and perhaps a better reflection of reality. Stakkato Gold does not even make it into the Hannoveraner Jahrbuch Hengst 2011, much less to that publication’s Top List of stallions scoring over 120 points, since he only had six tested progeny and needs a minimum of 10 to make the Hanoverian stallion breeding values.
The FN rankings also represent something of an admission of what a major error it was to banish Voltaire to the Low Countries – his Dutch born son, Now or Never M (out of a Nimmerdor mare) ranks 9th, while Now or Never’s Dutch born son, Valentino (out of a Belisar mare) comes in at 5th.
Interestingly for all the talk of using super performers as super sires, there are really only three top international competitors in the top ten: third ranked, Cornet Obolensky had a quiet year in 2010 with his best result a 4th in a 1.60 class at Lyon CSI**** but he has competed at the highest level; tenth placed, Catoki had a good 2010 season winning a 1.50 class at Donaueschingen CSI and the Grand Prix at Vigo CSI*****. He hit the ground running in 2011 with a win in the World Cup at Bordeaux. The great Carthago is 8th – he retired from competition in 2000 after a stellar jumping career.
Aside from his dramatic debut at the Bundeschampionate, Stakkato has been only a moderately successful competitor. In 2010, the best he could manage was a pair of 9ths – in a 1.40 class at Dresden and a 1.50 class at Munich CSI****. Stakkato Gold has had a reasonable career with Jan Sprehe but his only win has been in a 7/8 year old class at Neumünster in 2009 – coincidently, the following year, this same class produced the best result of the season for another of the top ten, sixth ranked Clarimo (Clearway / Caletto II) who won at Neumünster with that marvelous wild child of German jumping, Janne-Friederike Meyer in the saddle.
In fact, for all Stakkato has obviously produced a very large number of good jumpers (the 2011 Hanoverian Stallion Book lists him with 354 jumping competitors, 78 at S level, with winnings of €902,239) he has yet to produce an international super star, although his son, Souvenir, has had a most exciting career, with winnings of €184,797 to date, and looks to be making a genuine bid for a regular place in the German team. Stakkato was born in 1993, so I guess he has another couple of years before his progeny can be expected hit their top. For instance, Nabab de Reve whose progeny showed so brilliantly in Kentucky, was born in 1990, while Baloubet du Rouet was born in 1989 and Guidam in 1988.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/07/four-showjumping-masters-part-1-george-morris/
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/07/four-showjumping-masters-part-2-william-steinkraus/
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8061918]
Actually, flexibility in the spine helps increase the speed (kind of like a spring), at least in cheetahs, the fastest land animals. Here’s a National Geographic video that explains it, with beautiful slow-motion footage. They even refer to horses.
http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/media/cheetah-speed/?ar_a=1
Of course, getting a cheetah to jump a Grand Prix course might be a bit of a challenge…![/QUOTE]
Yes, a flexible spine can help cats and dogs run faster and jump higher. However these are carnivores who do not have to haul around the much bigger gut of horses, or to carry a rider, therefore they can afford to have a more flexible spine. And these carnivores’ spines tend to be more flexible all through the spine unlike the horse’s spine which has limited flexibility except in a few places, the neck, loin, and tail.
I don’t think there is a timber or hurdle horse who does not kick back when jumping, regardless of the size of the fence. The fourth fence in this link will give you a good view of this quality in steeplechase horses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYJTKC7piU
It’s a little more difficult to see in hurdle horses because they often allow their hind legs to go through the brush.
I’m beginning to think the quality of the canter is the big difference between warmbloods and tbs. Warmbloods are more vertical in their reach.
Regardless, both breeds are incredible athletes.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8062235]
Yes, a flexible spine can help cats and dogs run faster and jump higher. However these are carnivores who do not have to haul around the much bigger gut of horses, or to carry a rider, therefore they can afford to have a more flexible spine. And these carnivores’ spines tend to be more flexible all through the spine unlike the horse’s spine which has limited flexibility except in a few places, the neck, loin, and tail.[/QUOTE]
Interesting points, esp with regard to carnivores/herbivores. When I posted, I was in a hurry and probably didn’t make my point clearly, which was that rigidity of the spine most likely doesn’t enhance speed in horses. Rather, horses are fast DESPITE their rigid spines.
Interesting sidelight on cheetahs: they’re totally designed for SPEED–skeletal structure, muscle fiber type/distribution, cardiovascular system, even the shape of the head. Running is ALL they do and they’re superbly designed for it. Horses have some of these adaptations, but not to the same extent.
[QUOTE=SEPowell;8062389]
I don’t think there is a timber or hurdle horse who does not kick back when jumping, regardless of the size of the fence. The fourth fence in this link will give you a good view of this quality in steeplechase horses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYJTKC7piU
It’s a little more difficult to see in hurdle horses because they often allow their hind legs to go through the brush.
I’m beginning to think the quality of the canter is the big difference between warmbloods and tbs. Warmbloods are more vertical in their reach.
Regardless, both breeds are incredible athletes.[/QUOTE]
True, although there are TBs with a beautiful uphill canter. But those with the more vertical reach probably won’t be a top racehorse – too much time in the air.
It all depends on what the horse inherits. Top racehorses have had top jumpers as offspring. For example, Secretariat sired a very successful GP jumper, Quantum Leap, who competed in the 90’s. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213154
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8062235]
Yes, a flexible spine can help cats and dogs run faster and jump higher. However these are carnivores who do not have to haul around the much bigger gut of horses, or to carry a rider, therefore they can afford to have a more flexible spine. And these carnivores’ spines tend to be more flexible all through the spine unlike the horse’s spine which has limited flexibility except in a few places, the neck, loin, and tail.[/QUOTE]
Rodney Jenkins said that Idle Dice could reach around and grab his tail while galloping. He said ID was the most flexible horse he’d ever come across.
Just as an example, have you watched videos of Roven xx?
Again I post the link to this video (posted it in an other topic in the past): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpPw2JoHiTQ
http://equnews.com/miscellaneous/artemor-the-little-ex-racehorse-who-won-olympic-gold-in-showjumping/
Maximum Clearance: http://www.irelandhorse.com/Off%20main%20pages/Maximum.htm
http://www.paulickreport.com/features/ottb-showcase/ottb-showcase-blackcuda-show-name-arkansas-barn-name-denis/
https://www.pinterest.com/billylover0799/thoroughbreds/
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?135900-Great-Thoroughbred-Showjumpers-of-the-Past-and-Present
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU2GMN8HseY
https://www.pinterest.com/loisbennington5/horses-show-jumping/
https://www.pinterest.com/EquestrianCoach/vintage-equine/
