New decision in Holstein

[st_francis]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8062528]
Interesting points, esp with regard to carnivores/herbivores. When I posted, I was in a hurry and probably didn’t make my point clearly, which was that rigidity of the spine most likely doesn’t enhance speed in horses. Rather, horses are fast DESPITE their rigid spines.

Interesting sidelight on cheetahs: they’re totally designed for SPEED–skeletal structure, muscle fiber type/distribution, cardiovascular system, even the shape of the head. Running is ALL they do and they’re superbly designed for it. Horses have some of these adaptations, but not to the same extent.[/QUOTE]

I think the mechanism for speed in horses is much different than it is in cats. I read a couple of studies on the biomechanics of the gallop in horses , one on the function of the muscles and structure of the neck and another that discussed the swing of the leg , speed and relative lengtht of leg bones, I am sure I will never find them now but if I do I will link them.

Any way, the ossilation of the neck contributes greatly to a horses speed at a gallop and the muscles are used to Co troll the effect of the weight of the head at the end of a long thin neck. Maybe the ossilation of the back in cheetahs has the same function.

The conclusion of the second study was that mechanically the fastest structure of the limb in horses was a long thin cannon bone which explains a lot about your modern thoroughbred. Of course, that structure may be the fastest but it isn’t the best for weight bearing so if you were to breed a sounder TB with a shorter cannon you would likely be sacrificing speed.

It sounds like the same situation with your jumping horses where adding a different breed may compromise the mechanics of the jump, but maybe for a similar benefit in the long term?

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=st_francis;8062798]
I think the mechanism for speed in horses is much different than it is in cats. I read a couple of studies on the biomechanics of the gallop in horses , one on the function of the muscles and structure of the neck and another that discussed the swing of the leg , speed and relative lengtht of leg bones, I am sure I will never find them now but if I do I will link them.

Any way, the ossilation of the neck contributes greatly to a horses speed at a gallop and the muscles are used to Co troll the effect of the weight of the head at the end of a long thin neck. Maybe the ossilation of the back in cheetahs has the same function.

The conclusion of the second study was that mechanically the fastest structure of the limb in horses was a long thin cannon bone which explains a lot about your modern thoroughbred. Of course, that structure may be the fastest but it isn’t the best for weight bearing so if you were to breed a sounder TB with a shorter cannon you would likely be sacrificing speed.

It sounds like the same situation with your jumping horses where adding a different breed may compromise the mechanics of the jump, but maybe for a similar benefit in the long term?[/QUOTE]

Take a look at Lonhro, the Australian stallion.
http://www.lonhro.com.au/Gallery/pages/Lonhro_Stallion_Portrait_01_jpg.htm

He was an 1100 meter (middle distance) horse who won 14 G1 stakes on turf in Australia and ran for four years. He was a champion son of a champion. He’s got low set hocks and what look to me like rather short front cannons. If any TB has “good bone”, he’s definitely one of them.

But American race breeders didn’t flock to him, even though he had a lot to offer in the way of bone. He shuttled for three years to Darnley in KY, stood for 30k, and isn’t shuttling this year.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Elles;8062784]
http://www.paulickreport.com/features/ottb-showcase/ottb-showcase-blackcuda-show-name-arkansas-barn-name-denis/
https://www.pinterest.com/billylover0799/thoroughbreds/
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?135900-Great-Thoroughbred-Showjumpers-of-the-Past-and-Present
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU2GMN8HseY
https://www.pinterest.com/loisbennington5/horses-show-jumping/
https://www.pinterest.com/EquestrianCoach/vintage-equine/[/QUOTE]

Thank you Elles for the videos and pictures throughout this thread. Really nice jumping horses, and some of these riders are so incredibly soft

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8062679]
True, although there are TBs with a beautiful uphill canter. But those with the more vertical reach probably won’t be a top racehorse – too much time in the air.

It all depends on what the horse inherits. Top racehorses have had top jumpers as offspring. For example, Secretariat sired a very successful GP jumper, Quantum Leap, who competed in the 90’s. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213154[/QUOTE]

I didn’t mean to imply the tb canter was not uphill. The good jumping tbs I’ve seen do have uphill canters. What they lack is the more vertical movement that you tend to see in the legs of horses that descend from carriage horses.

[Elles]

https://www.pinterest.com/katmccall/equestrian/
https://www.pinterest.com/willomoor/show-jumpers/
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/beyond-the-blinkers/archive/2012/07/05/catching-a-falling-star.aspx
https://equestriancollegeadvisor.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/dont-count-ponies-out/
http://phelpssports.com/printarticle.php?id=10003111
http://www.equestrian.org.au/chichester
http://www.showjumpingnostalgia.com/?tag=stroller

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;8062925]
I didn’t mean to imply the tb canter was not uphill. The good jumping tbs I’ve seen do have uphill canters. What they lack is the more vertical movement that you tend to see in the legs of horses that descend from carriage horses.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the confusion. I don’t think there are any good TBs that don’t have balanced canters, racing or jumping.

It’s just that I’ve seen quite a few TBs with a lot of “action”, in spite if having been bred for speed.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8063069]
Sorry for the confusion. I don’t think there are any good TBs that don’t have balanced canters, racing or jumping.

It’s just that I’ve seen quite a few TBs with a lot of “action”, in spite if having been bred for speed.[/QUOTE]

Me too, and some of them were very speedy. Years ago when I worked for Dr. Fisher I exercised a filly with more action than than some of the horses in the barn. At the time we had just moved to Fair Hill and Joe Clancy Sr. was in our barn for a bit. One day he over heard some of the riders criticizing this filly and he came to me privately and told me not to listen to them, that a horse’s action had very little impact on its speed. And he was right, that filly became an allowance horse while many of the daisy cutters never came to anything.

That experience made me realize that much of what we hear is myth and horses are brilliant at proving you wrong.

[grayarabpony]

I would think being a daisy cutter could be a disadvantage – a racehorse needs both push from behind and reach in front. Daisy cutters can have limited motion in front.

I think suspension would be more of a slowing factor than a lot of knee and hock action.

[vineyridge]

In eventing, in aspiring to the highest levels the one thing that should be avoided is a gallop “that pounds the ground”. Such a gallop is very obvious and seems to be very energy sapping. A horse can have up and down action at the walk, trot and canter, but if it doesn’t glide at the canter, it’s gonna be toast at the highest levels.

At the Lexington WEG, one could predict who was going to finish and finish well by the quality of the gallop at the halfway point.

[Elles]

http://esmtoday.org/articles_CordelaBryere_032014.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cor_de_la_Bryere
http://www.horsebreedersmagazine.com/#/super-sire-landgraf/4552872989
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/08/landgraf/
http://www.ewsz.com/EWSZ/pedigree.asp?horseID=2020
http://datab.us/Search/Popular%2BCor%2Bde%2Bla%2BBryere%2Band%2BShow%2Bjumping%2Bvideos%2BPlayListIDPLWGv_BDv_Y62Oa3Gz6AnHxMI-vZMcyQ-_
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/cor-de-la-bryere-and-ladykiller-exert-more-influence-today-20-years-ago
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpWEG2006.html
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/08/cor-de-la-bryere/

Again, Ladykiller xx and Cor de la Bryere changed Holsteiners and show jumping for the better. There might be an other of those improvement blood horses around, who knows. Or it might be bred by the use of a TB, nobody can know now for certain.

[Elles]

Would show jumping people rather have a heavy type of horse like Fangball:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fangball
Or one looking like Corland?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/corland
Still today there are Holsteiner horses that could do with more blood. I have regularly read on a German forum that people are saying the Holstein breed on average could do with more refinement/blood.

And please do not say the right TB’s no longer exist. Nowadays hardly anyone is looking for one, why would people?

[Elles]

http://forum.horse-gate.de/showthread.php?47009-Podiumsdiskussion-18-1-11-des-Vereins-der-privaten-HH-Holsteins
Nach wie vor sei der Vollbluteinsatz extrem wichtig, sonst werden die Pferde zu schwer und langsam im Ablauf. Insgesamt seien die Pferde in Holstein und Belgien schwerer als in Holland, dem müsse man entgegenwirken.

Translation:
As before, the use of Thoroughbred blood is extremely important, otherwise, the horses are too heavy and slow in the process. Overall, the horses in Holstein and Belgium are heavier than in Holland, you must counteract this.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Elles;8063668]
Would show jumping people rather have a heavy type of horse like Fangball:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fangball
Or one looking like Corland?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/corland
Still today there are Holsteiner horses that could do with more blood. I have regularly read on a German forum that people are saying the Holstein breed on average could do with more refinement/blood.

And please do not say the right TB’s no longer exist. Nowadays hardly anyone is looking for one, why would people?[/QUOTE]

You are wrong on your last comments. Many, maaaaany people are looking for the next big thing in TB. They have been looking historicaly in continental Europe, GB, Ireland and USA, but have moved in the recebnt years to South America, Australia and NZ to find new lines. Their are still avid defenders of the TB in the warmblood world, such as Jan Greeve, who stood Julio Mariner and more recently Alabaran, and many others. Even if some are available here and there, none seems to make the impact these old classic TB did.

Bayhawk’s point of view is shared by many very knowledgeable breeders. Even the TB supporters will generaly use them to improve breedeing progams on a generational basis and not chose them to produce a horse for the sport. It becomes a bit irritating when every opinion that do not share the pro TB point of view is qualified as ignorant, as it is generaly shared by a lot of greats in the industry.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8064083]
You are wrong on your last comments. Many, maaaaany people are looking for the next big thing in TB. They have been looking historicaly in continental Europe, GB, Ireland and USA, but have moved in the recebnt years to South America, Australia and NZ to find new lines. Their are still avid defenders of the TB in the warmblood world, such as Jan Greeve, who stood Julio Mariner and more recently Alabaran, and many others. Even if some are available here and there, none seems to make the impact these old classic TB did.

Bayhawk’s point of view is shared by many very knowledgeable breeders. Even the TB supporters will generaly use them to improve breedeing progams on a generational basis and not chose them to produce a horse for the sport. It becomes a bit irritating when every opinion that do not share the pro TB point of view is qualified as ignorant, as it is generaly shared by a lot of greats in the industry.[/QUOTE]

Cumano, top riders are not looking for jumpers among TBs anymore. If there are any top riders left like that they are rare. They used to have contacts at the track and would go and try them out there. Sorry but nobody is looking for top jumpers among TBs in the US with a fine tooth comb, not even close. Top riders are going to Europe and buying a horse that is already jumping, following the precedent set in the 80s when imports were cheap.

It gets a bit irritating when people like bayhawk calls everyone else ignorant, which he does with annoying regularity. Especially when he’s not even correct when he does so.

I don’t know how many times it has to be said: breed what you like. I’ll buy what I like.

[Elles]

I wrote many horse people in Holland about my TB colt http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?459662-Sire-line-and-having-a-colt-gelded and most people showed very little enthusiasm or interest. Only one stallion owner said he wanted to come and have a look at him. I have not let the stallion owner see my colt (yet). This particular stallion owner has (for as far as I know) never owner a TB stallion and he told me by e-mail he does not know a lot about TB’s. Greve did not answer at all to my e-mail.

[Elles]

http://forum.horse-gate.de/showthread.php?47009-Podiumsdiskussion-18-1-11-des-Vereins-der-privaten-HH-Holsteins
Es sei nicht einfach, den geeignten VB Hengst zu finden, diese müßten aber dann auch genutzt werden von den Züchtern.
Zum Thema Eintragung Vollblutstuten erzählte Nissen, dass dies ein schwieriges Thema sei. Es werde gerade darüber nachgedacht, besonders geeignete VB STuten zuzulassen. Eine freie Zulassung werde es nicht geben, da die Zucht in USA, wo sehr viele VB Stuten von Holsteiner Hengsten gedeckt wurden, gezeigt habe, da da in keinster Weise das gewünschte Pferd rauskäme.

Translation:
It’s not easy finding the appropriate TB Stallion, this should then also be used by breeders.
On the subject of registration of Thoroughbred mares Nissen told that this a difficult topic. The studbook is considering to allow particularly suitable TB mares. A free admission for TB mares will not be allowed, as it shows in the United States, where many TB mares have been covered by Holsteiner stallions, that in no way the desired horse came out of this .

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Elles;8064122]
I wrote many horse people in Holland about my TB colt http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?459662-Sire-line-and-having-a-colt-gelded and most people showed very little enthusiasm or interest. Only one stallion owner said he wanted to come and have a look at him. I have not let the stallion owner see my colt (yet). This particular stallion owner has (for as far as I know) never owner a TB stallion and he told me by e-mail he does not know a lot about TB’s. Greve did not answer at all to my e-mail.[/QUOTE]

Nobody is going to be interested in him unless he is extraordinary in some way, and that’s usually true of any stallion prospect in Europe. Since he’s a TB no one is going to think he is extraordinary based on his pedigree. He will have to prove that he’s talented in dressage and/or jumping.

You should watch the Thoroughbred Makeover next year. http://www.retiredracehorseproject.org/2015-thoroughbred-makeover Sadly I do not think the video is archived so you’ll have to watch it live. It’s in October. Some very very talented horses were on show there when I saw it last year!

[Elles]

Of course but you would think that if so many people are looking for a TB stallion and there are not so many to look at in Holland that someone might be interested to have a look at him.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Elles;8064154]
http://forum.horse-gate.de/showthread.php?47009-Podiumsdiskussion-18-1-11-des-Vereins-der-privaten-HH-Holsteins
Es sei nicht einfach, den geeignten VB Hengst zu finden, diese müßten aber dann auch genutzt werden von den Züchtern.
Zum Thema Eintragung Vollblutstuten erzählte Nissen, dass dies ein schwieriges Thema sei. Es werde gerade darüber nachgedacht, besonders geeignete VB STuten zuzulassen. Eine freie Zulassung werde es nicht geben, da die Zucht in USA, wo sehr viele VB Stuten von Holsteiner Hengsten gedeckt wurden, gezeigt habe, da da in keinster Weise das gewünschte Pferd rauskäme.

Translation:
It’s not easy finding the appropriate TB Stallion, this should then also be used by breeders.
On the subject of registration of Thoroughbred mares Nissen told that this a difficult topic. The studbook is considering to allow particularly suitable TB mares. A free admission for TB mares will not be allowed, as it shows in the United States, where many TB mares have been covered by Holsteiner stallions, that in no way the desired horse came out of this .[/QUOTE]

In the US many people think of the mare as a vessel for a stallion clone. No kidding, it’s not uncommon for people to vastly underestimate the contribution of the mare. Nor it is uncommon for people to breed mares that are unrideable (either due to personality or lameness) to give them a “job”. It’s crazy.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Elles;8064173]
Of course but you would think that if so many people are looking for a TB stallion and there are not so many to look at in Holland that someone might be interested to have a look at him.[/QUOTE]

I see your point but I think he has to prove that he’s good at something. I love TBs and I wouldn’t go look at a young unproven TB like that unless he was at least a gorgeous mover. And they exist. The best TB movers I have seen were every bit as good as the best warmblood movers I have seen. One was in the Makeover last year, Anthony Patch. https://vimeo.com/111962118 He’s a 4 star event horse.
Another was a mare I saw in a dressage clinic. Still another was owned the barn manager when I boarded my horse in Pennsylvania. Such horses aren’t that common though. It’s more common for a TB to be a talented jumper than dressage horse. They can even have the gaits but be a little too independent-minded for dressage, which is part of the reason they are so good at eventing.