[QUOTE=Elles;8064392]
I do not think they care to look at any Thoroughbred. The Thoroughbred world is far away from the warmblood / sport horse world. It is just two completely separate worlds.[/QUOTE]
That’s true even here and it’s a shame. I haven’t bought a horse directly off the track but my impression is that if you go look at a horse on the track and don’t buy it you may be seen as a time-waster and tire-kicker.
[QUOTE=omare;8064535]
You can see the trend-- in that MOs want to use stallions that have competed at the top level and only then give them a chance to see if they can produce themselves, only better. I think it is not possible for mere mortals to find the next ladykiller that everyone will want to use. I think the next great xx stallion will need to be a convincing 1.6m horse first before he will be able to show he is the next Ladykiller in the breeding shed.[/QUOTE]
Agreed – and odds are unless the horse was specifically bred for jumping, he will be gelded long before he can prove himself.
I remember Kathy from Equine Reproduction saying that there are a few stallions getting a majority of the breedings.
[QUOTE=Elles;8063669]
Translation:
As before, the use of Thoroughbred blood is extremely important, otherwise, the horses are too heavy and slow in the process. Overall, the horses in Holstein and Belgium are heavier than in Holland, you must counteract this.[/QUOTE]
Fangball (bless his heart, what an unfortunate name) certainly was a chunk!
I have no dog in this fight, however I am fascinated by the discussion.
It is interesting to see how the thoroughbred type of his ancestors is not to be seen in him (though I’m sure he would look quite different in its absence).
His line was an example then, of the type that breeders wanted to lighten up with blood , putting a daughter to a TB stallion? or did he produce a lighter type when used with a finer type of Holsteiner mare? I was unable to find any photos of his offspring (after an admittedly quick search).
These are Fangball offspring: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=545130&time=1398437548&z=uqMZ8w
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=392026&time=1398440014
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=233452
A Fangball great grandson: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=233681
I’m sorry if I missed something, but why are horses from decades and decades ago being posted as examples? Both our modern warmbloods and our modern thoroughbreds look/move differently than those of yesteryear and the show scene has changed dramatically too.
[QUOTE=Elles;8064154]
http://forum.horse-gate.de/showthread.php?47009-Podiumsdiskussion-18-1-11-des-Vereins-der-privaten-HH-Holsteins
Es sei nicht einfach, den geeignten VB Hengst zu finden, diese müßten aber dann auch genutzt werden von den Züchtern.
Zum Thema Eintragung Vollblutstuten erzählte Nissen, dass dies ein schwieriges Thema sei. Es werde gerade darüber nachgedacht, besonders geeignete VB STuten zuzulassen. Eine freie Zulassung werde es nicht geben, da die Zucht in USA, wo sehr viele VB Stuten von Holsteiner Hengsten gedeckt wurden, gezeigt habe, da da in keinster Weise das gewünschte Pferd rauskäme.
Translation:
It’s not easy finding the appropriate TB Stallion, this should then also be used by breeders.
On the subject of registration of Thoroughbred mares Nissen told that this a difficult topic. The studbook is considering to allow particularly suitable TB mares. A free admission for TB mares will not be allowed, as it shows in the United States, where many TB mares have been covered by Holsteiner stallions, that in no way the desired horse came out of this .[/QUOTE]
The last sentence ^^^ is what I’ve been saying for years.
The Germans have only seen these crosses on a once a year basis when they come over but I see them on a more regular basis at shows.
What is left to glean ? You will seldom breed a good sporthorse from a TB mother.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8064098]
Cumano, top riders are not looking for jumpers among TBs anymore. If there are any top riders left like that they are rare. They used to have contacts at the track and would go and try them out there. Sorry but nobody is looking for top jumpers among TBs in the US with a fine tooth comb, not even close. Top riders are going to Europe and buying a horse that is already jumping, following the precedent set in the 80s when imports were cheap.
It gets a bit irritating when people like bayhawk calls everyone else ignorant, which he does with annoying regularity. Especially when he’s not even correct when he does so.
I don’t know how many times it has to be said: breed what you like. I’ll buy what I like.[/QUOTE]
Bayhawk this and Bayhawk that…I long for the day when you grow up.
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8064894]
I’m sorry if I missed something, but why are horses from decades and decades ago being posted as examples? Both our modern warmbloods and our modern thoroughbreds look/move differently than those of yesteryear and the show scene has changed dramatically too.[/QUOTE]
Dunno. Horses like these would be more relevant:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10207322. She won the WEG in 2002.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Butterfly+flip&x=-834&y=-27
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8064927]
Dunno. Horses like these would be more relevant:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10207322. She won the WEG in 2002.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Butterfly+flip&x=-834&y=-27
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10218348[/QUOTE]
In two of those examples, the tb breeding stock was from the 60s and the other from 1980. While those are closer to being relevant, they still aren’t actually relevant. I personally think Tbs have radically changed over the past 25 years. The thoroughbred horses I rode in the 90s are nothing like the ones now.
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8065021]
In two of those examples, the tb breeding stock was from the 60s and the other from 1980. While those are closer to being relevant, they still aren’t actually relevant. I personally think Tbs have radically changed over the past 25 years. The thoroughbred horses I rode in the 90s are nothing like the ones now.[/QUOTE]
I’m curious to know how they have changed in your eyes? Also, were you riding ottbs or thoroughbreds bred for sport?
[QUOTE=SEPowell;8065096]
I’m curious to know how they have changed in your eyes? Also, were you riding ottbs or thoroughbreds bred for sport?[/QUOTE]
They were generally larger framed with bigger bone. They tended to be a bit more uphill and had better technique over the fence. I believe these were predominantly ottb (as are the vast majority). Today’s tbs seem more compact, a bit more downhill and built for sprinting. And I personally think they have less ideal shoulders whereas in the past, I saw some great front ends.
But that’s my experience. I love a good tb and own 7 but those all are used in our lesson program at 3’/3’6" and below. My personal show horses are warmbloods as I find them better suited for upper level showing in today’s industry.
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8065021]
In two of those examples, the tb breeding stock was from the 60s and the other from 1980. While those are closer to being relevant, they still aren’t actually relevant. I personally think Tbs have radically changed over the past 25 years. The thoroughbred horses I rode in the 90s are nothing like the ones now.[/QUOTE]
The first two horses were born in 1991. To say their breeding is irrelevant is just strange IMO. Many of the horses competing now were born around 2000. It’s not as though their grandparents would have been born in 1998.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065171]
The first two horses were born in 1991. To say their breeding is irrelevant is just strange IMO. Many of the horses competing now were born around 2000. It’s not as though their grandparents would have been born in 1998.[/QUOTE]
The first was born in 1991, out of an ISH mare by a Tb born in 1968. The second (also born in 1991) was out of a tb mare also born in '68. So unless you have some tbs hanging around the breeding shed that are from the 60s and 70s, they are irrelevant to breeders TODAY.
Another example: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/354819. Brilliant Invader, sire of the great eventer Ready Teddy. Born in 1978 and has progeny competing now.
Not irrelevant to breeding TODAY.
We finaly found one! The only horse I know in those lines is his grand daughter Delphi who sincerly was a phenomenom. The rest, if all those informations are accurate seems of quality based on a relatively small production. The other three horses are mainly warmbloods with TB as maternal grand sires (I don’t see what point it makes) except for Butterfly Flip. She was a super horse (15 years ago) but still I think she would still be a good horse today. She is now at Joris de Brabander’s Stal de Muze and he is taking a couple of embryos from her each year. I am looking forward to see if she produces as well as she was.
Brilliant Invader has one maybe two direct offspring (F1) currently competing. Everything else is F2 or further down, which is the point in using tb blood in breeding sport horsess.
not sure if everybody can watch this… but I hope
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=974501009229821
Asagao xx von Tertullian xx/Tagel xx
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8064894]
I’m sorry if I missed something, but why are horses from decades and decades ago being posted as examples? Both our modern warmbloods and our modern thoroughbreds look/move differently than those of yesteryear and the show scene has changed dramatically too.[/QUOTE]
It is interesting (and for breeders, absolutely imperative) to study horses from “decades and decades” ago. Some WB breeders spend a great deal of time doing just that. (I refer to professional breeders, not just anyone who decides to breed a mare).
The xx influence on the Holsteiner and the advisability of adding more blood (the subject of this thread) can only be analyzed from studying the influence of xx blood that has been passed down from generations and what effect that infusion had on different bloodlines.
Being obsessed with horses from “decades” ago is de rigueur for expert and conscientious breeders. I am not a breeder, however I know several, and they are all very, very knowledgeable about the horses of “yesteryear”.
I find the subject interesting and think it quite admirable that they take such pains. :yes:
[QUOTE=Elles;8064822]
These are Fangball offspring: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=545130&time=1398437548&z=uqMZ8w
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=392026&time=1398440014
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=233452
A Fangball great grandson: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=233681[/QUOTE]
Thanks Elles!
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8065212]
Brilliant Invader has one maybe two direct offspring (F1) currently competing. Everything else is F2 or further down, which is the point in using tb blood in breeding sport horsess.[/QUOTE]
Look at Flower Power’s progeny. She herself was a 1.6m jumper and has two F1 offspring competing at 1.6m. http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/648690
Brilliant Invader has 4 offspring born 1999-2000 that are competing in show jumping, or have until very recently. Golden Knight xx is a stallion born in 1999 who show jumps. Koyuna Sun Storm xx is a mare born in 2000 that is a 1.6m jumper.
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