New decision in Holstein

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=skydy;8065236]
It is interesting (and for breeders, absolutely imperative) to study horses from “decades and decades” ago. Some WB breeders spend a great deal of time doing just that. (I refer to professional breeders, not just anyone who decides to breed a mare).

The xx influence on the Holsteiner and the advisability of adding more blood (the subject of this thread) can only be analyzed from studying the influence of xx blood that has been passed down from generations and what effect that infusion had on different bloodlines.

Being obsessed with horses from “decades” ago is de rigueur for expert and conscientious breeders. I am not a breeder, however I know several, and they are all very, very knowledgeable about the horses of “yesteryear”.

I find the subject interesting and think it quite admirable that they take such pains. :yes:[/QUOTE]

Excellent point.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8065234]
not sure if everybody can watch this… but I hope
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=974501009229821

Asagao xx von Tertullian xx/Tagel xx[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting that. He looks very nice! I love his form over fences.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065268]
Thanks for posting that. He looks very nice! I love his form over fences.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, I thought I should maybe post a modern TB for a change, after all these old models…

[hntrjmprpro45]

[QUOTE=skydy;8065236]
It is interesting (and for breeders, absolutely imperative) to study horses from “decades and decades” ago. Some WB breeders spend a great deal of time doing just that. (I refer to professional breeders, not just anyone who decides to breed a mare).

The xx influence on the Holsteiner and the advisability of adding more blood (the subject of this thread) can only be analyzed from studying the influence of xx blood that has been passed down from generations and what effect that infusion had on different bloodlines.

Being obsessed with horses from “decades” ago is de rigueur for expert and conscientious breeders. I am not a breeder, however I know several, and they are all very, very knowledgeable about the horses of “yesteryear”.

I find the subject interesting and think it quite admirable that they take such pains. :yes:[/]

It seems like when people speak of “infusing tb blood” into pedigree, that any ole tb blood would do (or have the same effect). I stand by the fact that the tbs of the 80s and prior are quite a bit different than the thoroughbreds of today. The blood they infused when they were initially developing the holsteiners is quite a bit different from what is seen now, not to mention the many other options we now have with the hotter French blood (that is actually bred for jumping).

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8065332]

It seems like when people speak of “infusing tb blood” into pedigree, that any ole tb blood would do (or have the same effect). I stand by the fact that the tbs of the 80s and prior are quite a bit different than the thoroughbreds of today. The blood they infused when they were initially developing the holsteiners is quite a bit different from what is seen now, not to mention the many other options we now have with the hotter French blood (that is actually bred for jumping).[/QUOTE]

That is completely incorrect.

You seem to be painting TBs with a broad brush, as though they are all like the ones you describe.

[hntrjmprpro45]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065345]
You seem to be painting TBs with a broad brush, as though they are all like the ones you describe.[/QUOTE]

There are obviously some thoroughbred lines that could be used in modern breeding (if you so choose) but those are few and far between. That is the point. The holsteiner verband is allowing breeders a few more options (probably because tb stallions of the right calibre are hard to come by) for those select breeders that want to infuse some tb blood into their herd. If there were plentiful tb breeding stock, they wouldn’t need to add that rule.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8064927]
Dunno. Horses like these would be more relevant:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10207322. She won the WEG in 2002.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Butterfly+flip&x=-834&y=-27

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10218348[/QUOTE]

I’m curious…you honestly think the horses in the first two photos are good jumpers? I’d love to hear specifically what you find so appealing about their jump, particularly the second photo.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8065332]

[QUOTE=skydy;8065236]It is interesting (and for breeders, absolutely imperative) to study horses from “decades and decades” ago. Some WB breeders spend a great deal of time doing just that. (I refer to professional breeders, not just anyone who decides to breed a mare).

The xx influence on the Holsteiner and the advisability of adding more blood (the subject of this thread) can only be analyzed from studying the influence of xx blood that has been passed down from generations and what effect that infusion had on different bloodlines.

Being obsessed with horses from “decades” ago is de rigueur for expert and conscientious breeders. I am not a breeder, however I know several, and they are all very, very knowledgeable about the horses of “yesteryear”.

I find the subject interesting and think it quite admirable that they take such pains. :yes:[/]

It seems like when people speak of “infusing tb blood” into pedigree, that any ole tb blood would do (or have the same effect). I stand by the fact that the tbs of the 80s and prior are quite a bit different than the thoroughbreds of today. The blood they infused when they were initially developing the holsteiners is quite a bit different from what is seen now, not to mention the many other options we now have with the hotter French blood (that is actually bred for jumping).[/QUOTE]

No, that is not what is meant by the phrase at all. You seem unfamiliar with longstanding breeding terminology…

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8065372]
There are obviously some thoroughbred lines that could be used in modern breeding (if you so choose) but those are few and far between. That is the point. The holsteiner verband is allowing breeders a few more options (probably because tb stallions of the right calibre are hard to come by) for those select breeders that want to infuse some tb blood into their herd. If there were plentiful tb breeding stock, they wouldn’t need to add that rule.[/QUOTE]

The same could be said of warmbloods. There aren’t that many that can jump at 1.6m level, and they are purpose bred for it. Contrary to what has been stated here, TBs in the US are not under close scrutiny for jumping talent. Not anymore.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8065385]
I’m curious…you honestly think the horses in the first two photos are good jumpers? I’d love to hear specifically what you find so appealing about their jump, particularly the second photo.[/QUOTE]

Is this a serious question, and if so why?

Both horses competed at the World Equestrian Games. Lisacalgot WON the WEG in 2002. She is an absolutely phenomenal jumper. Butterfly Flip competed at the WEG and Olympics and won team silver at both. http://www.hippomundo.nl/horses/pedigree/line/512145

That they competed at the WEG/Olympics was even in the links I provided earlier.

[hntrjmprpro45]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065414]
The same could be said of warmbloods. There aren’t that many that can jump at 1.6m level, and they are purpose bred for it.[/QUOTE]

There are far more warmbloods at that level than Tb. But yes, you are correct that not many make it to 1.60m. And that is exactly why you would want to stack the deck in your favor when selecting breeding stock. If you have access to thoroughbreds that come from a long line of 1.60m horses then that is absolutely phenomenal. But that usually isn’t the case, so most breeders go with warmbloods from 1.60m lines and if they need to add a “hotter” influence, then they select from some of the French lines that are proven at that level.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;8065433]
There are far more warmbloods at that level than Tb. But yes, you are correct that not many make it to 1.60m. And that is exactly why you would want to stack the deck in your favor when selecting breeding stock. If you have access to thoroughbreds that come from a long line of 1.60m horses then that is absolutely phenomenal. But that usually isn’t the case, so most breeders go with warmbloods from 1.60m lines and if they need to add a “hotter” influence, then they select from some of the French lines that are proven at that level.[/QUOTE]

Which is why it’d be great if TBs were purpose bred for jumping. The US could have used TBs to create a great jumper program but did not.

It’s has been “fun” but this is getting tiresome now.

[hntrjmprpro45]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065442]
Which is why it’d be great if TBs were purpose bred for jumping. The US could have used TBs to create a great jumper program but did not.

It’s has been “fun” but this is getting tiresome now.[/QUOTE]

Agreed and agreed.

Now what do I win for killing this thread?

[grayarabpony]

The thread isn’t dead, it will go on without you.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065431]
Is this a serious question, and if so why?

Both horses competed at the World Equestrian Games. Lisacalgot WON the WEG in 2002. She is an absolutely phenomenal jumper. Butterfly Flip competed at the WEG and Olympics and won team silver at both. http://www.hippomundo.nl/horses/pedigree/line/512145

That they competed at the WEG/Olympics was even in the links I provided earlier.[/QUOTE]

It’s a simple question. Explain the jump in the second photo…why you think it’s great. Be specific…I’d really like you to tell me why you think that is a good jump. I really don’t care what the horse has won. Granted, it may be just one photo in time, but since you posted it as an example of a good jump, I’d like to hear why you think so.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8065467]
It’s a simple question. Explain the jump in the second photo…why you think it’s great. Be specific…I’d really like you to tell me why you think that is a good jump. I really don’t care what the horse has won.[/QUOTE]

No. I’m not going to answer such a ridiculous question.

Only on COTH would someone ask why a WEG show jumping winner and a horse with a stellar showjumping career that includes WEG and Olympic medals are good jumpers. :lol:

[skydy]

[/QUOTE] hntrjmprpro45 It seems like when people speak of “infusing tb blood” into pedigree, that any ole tb blood would do (or have the same effect). I stand by the fact that the tbs of the 80s and prior are quite a bit different than the thoroughbreds of today. The blood they infused when they were initially developing the holsteiners is quite a bit different from what is seen now, not to mention the many other options we now have with the hotter French blood (that is actually bred for jumping).[/QUOTE]

No, that is not what is meant by the phrase at all.

You seem to be unfamiliar with long standing (and common) breeding terminology.

[Elles]

Already 27 pages about him here: http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?64670-Asagao-xx-(von-Tertullian-xx-Tagel-xx)
He seems to be a nice sort and at least people are discussing him and so he is not completely ignored.

[QUOTE=Manni01;8065234]
not sure if everybody can watch this… but I hope
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=974501009229821

Asagao xx von Tertullian xx/Tagel xx[/QUOTE]

[Elles]

You have to know the history to be able to decide for the future. To know where you are coming from is very relevant to be a little bit more able to predict the future. Fangball shows what has happened to the Holsteiner since much more blood was infused into the breed. Because horses of his type are no longer around.

Some more history to show that show jumping horses of the past often were no donkeys and were not of a heavy type:
https://www.pinterest.com/ortegatack/wall-of-fame/
Should horses nowadays be of heavier type for the show jumping courses or should they be of a lighter type?

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065259]
Excellent point.[/QUOTE]

[Elles]

Or a lot of owners do not want to spend the time, money or energy on them to try to get to that level. Lots of people are not driven enough or experienced enough or do not have the money.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065414]
The same could be said of warmbloods. There aren’t that many that can jump at 1.6m level, and they are purpose bred for it. Contrary to what has been stated here, TBs in the US are not under close scrutiny for jumping talent. Not anymore.[/QUOTE]