Maybe in America only people who want to be competitive buy a warmblood but in Holland it is the most common horse to be found. There are lots and lots of warmbloods, some people have a Friesian or a Quarterhorse and some might have a pony, Arabian or a OT trotter. But most people who just want to ride for recreation have a warmblood horse. And a number of them would like to go back to the older type warmblood because they were easier to ride on the road and in terrain. In a densly populated country like Holland a recreational rider rather has an easy going quiet type of horse than a high strung warmblood bred for sport. But people do not have a lot of choice except for buying a Friesian and not everyone likes a Friesian. The Dutch on average are very tall people and therefore a small horse is often not very suitable.
[QUOTE=Elles;8065555]
Already 27 pages about him here: http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?64670-Asagao-xx-(von-Tertullian-xx-Tagel-xx)
He seems to be a nice sort and at least people are discussing him and so he is not completely ignored.[/QUOTE]
Good choice Tom. People in Germany seem to be rather positive about him.
Also do they seem to like Ibisco but I think in his case mostly for dressage. But there are people who say he can also jump but he has, as far as I know, not been presented over fences.
I donāt know if any breeder or breed association is ready to do this.
Go to South America. Chile is the main country I am thinking of since I do not know the current problems with Argentina or Uruguay with hoof and mouth disease.
While there is probably modern American TB blood in the Chilean TB, there should be old mare lines in existence. I am not familiar with any Chilean TB winning the super races in the Northern Hemisphere in the last 20-30 years (and of course I could be wrong about this.) Since your breeds seem to NEED TB blood and the modern US and European TBs do not seem to blend as well as the old TB lines, go to where the old TB lines, conformation and movement are still in existence.
THEN, if suitable TBs are found, the WB breed associations might want to consider doing a breeding program of pure TB lines just for jumping so they will have access to suitable TBs. I really doubt that the TB breeders will do this for you, if you want it you will have to do it yourselves. But I have a feeling that this must be done SOON, before all the TB lines in the world are swamped with the modern type TB.
Roven was bred in Argentinia then exported to the US and then to Europe. French Buffet was Chilean bred.
Is there any particular type of thoroughbred horse that could be most suited (a lot of the horses in the pictures are TBās):
https://www.google.nl/search?q=carlos+horse+gate+forum+āxxā&hl=nl&rlz=1T4MERD_nlNL503NL503&biw=1600&bih=698&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=noQNVfiLOJKBafyNgYAF&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#hl=nl&tbm=isch&q=carlo+āhorse+gate+forumā+āxxā+blut
[QUOTE=Elles;8065564]
Maybe in America only people who want to be competitive buy a warmblood but in Holland it is the most common horse to be found. There are lots and lots of warmbloods, some people have a Friesian or a Quarterhorse and some might have a pony, Arabian or a OT trotter. But most people who just want to ride for recreation have a warmblood horse. And a number of them would like to go back to the older type warmblood because they were easier to ride on the road and in terrain. In a densly populated country like Holland a recreational rider rather has an easy going quiet type of horse than a high strung warmblood bred for sport. But people do not have a lot of choice except for buying a Friesian and not everyone likes a Friesian. The Dutch on average are very tall people and therefore a small horse is often not very suitable.[/QUOTE]
We probably have a wider range in type in TBs because we have such a higher number here, but there are many TBs who are quiet once they come down off the track. Not all of course, but many ammies ride them here. Just wanted to point out that all kinds of people ride TBs in the US.
My favorite TB horses were both very gentle and generous.
The secret to keeping them is giving them turnout and not feeding too many concentrates (grain). Otherwise even the most angelic TB might get a little whacky. lol
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065779]
Roven was bred in Argentinia then exported to the US and then to Europe. French Buffet was Chilean bred.[/QUOTE]
Roven was born in Chile as well.
This horse does not look very strong and powerful but it manages to jump enormous fences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2VpsxNy-Io&feature=player_embedded
Well, in Holland most people consider TBās life threatening monsters that will certainly break your neck. Although most people at the same time have never owned one, never ridden one and do not know a person who does have oneā¦
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8065823]
We probably have a wider range in type in TBs because we have such a higher number here, but there are many TBs who are quiet once they come down off the track. Not all of course, but many ammies ride them here. Just wanted to point out that all kinds of people ride TBs in the US.
My favorite TB horses were both very gentle and generous.
The secret to keeping them is giving them turnout and not feeding too many concentrates (grain). Otherwise even the most angelic TB might get a little whacky. lol[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Elles;8065830]
Well, in Holland most people consider TBās life threatening monsters that will certainly break your neck. Although most people at the same time have never owned one, never ridden one and do not know a person who does have oneā¦[/QUOTE]
A good TB is among the best of riding horses. Sensitive, forward, generous, tries their hardest, a āladiesā rideā. The majority are more talented for jumping than your average horse.
Iāll take that to mean that you donāt know, which is what I figured.
The stallions Roven and French Buffet, thanks for pointing them out! I enjoyed seeing their pictures and pedigrees.
But, for the long term, just finding suitable TB outcross stallions is NOT going to fix the problem. You are going to also get TB MARES of these lines to breed with the acceptable TB stallions so you can breed other TB stallions and mares of this blood for a continued source of this greatly needed outcross (there is no need to use these mares to establish dam lines in the WB breeds, they are needed to produce outcross sires.)
The Arabian breed in its pure form was saved through the spending of A LOT of money by landed gentry, nobility or governments. It also took vision, a lot of time, an ability to withstand a lot of disappointment, and a good eye for a horse. Several of these people ended up backrupt. The breeders who brought in MARES of undoubtedly pure blood established breeding lines that lasted, the others that were based on mares that may not have been quite so pure HAD TO bring in Arab stallions of undoubted purity regularly, or their Arabs would degenerate somewhat.
Since the saving of these particular bloodlines would benefit all of the Warmblood breeds the cost could be shared. It will be very expensive. Selection compromises will have to be made (size, conformation, movement, mechanics of the jump). You CANNOT depend on TB breeders to do this for you, they just want to win races, they do not particularly want to breed a specialized, non race winning TB so the WBs can have a suitable infusion of refinement, speed, endurance, hot blood, withers, long croups, etcā¦
Is this the type of TB sport horse people would like to see?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=326950&nm=2&time=1398437534
[QUOTE=Elles;8065792]
Is there any particular type of thoroughbred horse that could be most suited (a lot of the horses in the pictures are TBās):
https://www.google.nl/search?q=carlos+horse+gate+forum+āxxā&hl=nl&rlz=1T4MERD_nlNL503NL503&biw=1600&bih=698&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=noQNVfiLOJKBafyNgYAF&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#hl=nl&tbm=isch&q=carlo+āhorse+gate+forumā+āxxā+blut[/QUOTE]
I think that Octagonal and his sons would make sport horses.
Octagonal http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10005154
Lonhro http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10475799
Laverock http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10552720
Money or The Gun http://sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=11096145&time=1426956766
Octagonal sired a type. And looking at the pedigrees of his offspring, there are still Australian TBs with the old bloodlines available. But barely. Look at Money Or The Gunās pedigree. Top and bottom double to Relic, damsire line to Hyperion/Star Kingdom, and sire line to Sir Tristram.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8065874]
The stallions Roven and French Buffet, thanks for pointing them out! I enjoyed seeing their pictures and pedigrees.
But, for the long term, just finding suitable TB outcross stallions is NOT going to fix the problem. You are going to also get TB MARES of these lines to breed with the acceptable TB stallions so you can breed other TB stallions and mares of this blood for a continued source of this greatly needed outcross (there is no need to use these mares to establish dam lines in the WB breeds, they are needed to produce outcross sires.)
The Arabian breed in its pure form was saved through the spending of A LOT of money by landed gentry, nobility or governments. It also took vision, a lot of time, an ability to withstand a lot of disappointment, and a good eye for a horse. Several of these people ended up backrupt. The breeders who brought in MARES of undoubtedly pure blood established breeding lines that lasted, the others that were based on mares that may not have been quite so pure HAD TO bring in Arab stallions of undoubted purity regularly, or their Arabs would degenerate somewhat.
Since the saving of these particular bloodlines would benefit all of the Warmblood breeds the cost could be shared. It will be very expensive. Selection compromises will have to be made (size, conformation, movement, mechanics of the jump). You CANNOT depend on TB breeders to do this for you, they just want to win races, they do not particularly want to breed a specialized, non race winning TB so the WBs can have a suitable infusion of refinement, speed, endurance, hot blood, withers, long croups, etcā¦[/QUOTE]
Racing breeders are definitely not going to do this. Jumping/dressage/eventing breeders will have to do this, unfortunately there is not widespread interest. Top talent in almost every discipline discussed on COTH (exceptions are racing and endurance) is imported to the US, so clearly the Europeans are better at breeding and promoting their horses.
If warmbloods do need continued infusions of TB I agree that a TB breeding program would be very valuable. An American breeder could make a niche market breeding TBs. There would have to be a network of communication between the track and the rest of the sports world though that is lacking ā this in spite of all of the groups like CANTER that are doing their best to find homes and careers for TBs beyond the racetrack. I think better communication and cooperation would be to the advantage of the horses. I just donāt know if it can happen. I just wish more of the money in the racing world could go to alternate careers for TBs. But if the interest is just in racing that wonāt happen.
From the pictures I have looked at they look a bit QH like and down hill to meā¦
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8065898]
I think that Octagonal and his sons Lonhro and Laverock would make superlative sport horses.
Octagonal http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10005154
Lonhro http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10475799
Laverock http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10552720[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8065898]
I think that Octagonal and his sons Lonhro and Laverock would make superlative sport horses.
Octagonal http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10005154
Lonhro http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10475799
Laverock http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10552720[/QUOTE]
I think Laverock looks really nice based on the tiny bit of video of him and his offspring that I found with a quick search.
They do look thick and chunky, but remember these are photos of breeding stallions who are not in work. They may be croup high, but they are not downhill. They all have very large engines.
Their front pillar of support is in front of their withers; their stifles are below their elbows and their sheaths. They all have low set hocks and short cannons, so their height is in the long bones of the arm and leg, which ought lead to soundness. And they were all, exscpt for Money or The Gun, very successful racers at the highest levels, which shows athleticism.
I think this type would cross well with modern WBs to infuse TB qualities without affecting WB conformation all that much.
I see what you mean Vineyridge. Also they have wonderful pedigrees.
