“A good TB stallion that could jump bigger classes is not necessarly a stallion that have attributes required for WB breeding to transfer to its progeny. On the other side, a TB stallion that is not a great performer could have some attribute, other than jump, that could be beneficial to the WB in general.”
and that it could take some time to figure that out after each of those hypothetical stalliosn enters the breeding shed.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8083783]
No…once gain ,you just can’t seem to comprehend the intent.
The breeding director of the Holsteiner Verband WANTS the breeders to use more Tb’s as he is trying to look in to the future. That’s why they just relaxed the rules and told the breeders that they can use any TB stallion as long as another major registry has approved it. Problem is…the breeding director of the Holsteiner Verband doesn’t pay the bills of the breeders and it is the breeders who are aware of what the market wants today.
The problem is that most breeders don’t want to use a TB Stallion as they feel they don’t need him at this time.
What they do want , is to take advantage of the new rule that they can use stallions that have 3 placings at 1.60 meter and approved by another major registry.
This should tell you that the breeders want performance right now and they don’t feel they need a TB stallion for anything right now.[/QUOTE]
You have fulfilled your wish to be as clear and concise as PNWjumper with this post! :lol:
I don’t think you could have said it better or more tactfully. I’m starting to wonder if there is a language barrier at play in this thread.
Breeding is a complex process that involves a great deal of understanding and knowledge with regards to the genetics, the pedigrees, the sport, the evolution of the horses. I for sur am not a breeding Guru. People who knows me would tell you that I ask way more questions than I answer. But I have been lucky enough from working with great breeders, and benefit from mentorship from very experienced breeders, both here and in Europe. I spend all my free time in the barn with mares and foals, following the different stallion approuval on the web and, when I can, in person, the young horses classes, the whole FEI and GCT tours. As I mentionned times and time again, some may have been hard on that post, but it gets very iritating trying to have good discussions with people of other opinions, and getting insulted, treated as ignorant and constantly set back with ridiculous and false arguments by someone who clearly showed she doesn’t have a clue about what she is talking.
[QUOTE=Maren;8083605]
Just a fyi because it came up:
Hirtentanz’s highest show record (FN records) is at S*, which is 1,35m to 1,45m as per FN rules. He has won at that level several times.
And grayarabpony, he is not “generations of dressage horses”. Very far from it. Just because his sire competes at GP Dressage doesn’t mean that is what his athletic ability is. He had the highest jumping score of his approvals and there are a lot of very knowledgeable people out there that would have guaranteed that stallion a high end jumper career if he had been sent down that path. His owners had different plans, and he is doing very well in dressage, but that really just is a testament ot his versatility as a sport horse. Axis’s dam sire is a close relative to TSF Karascada’s dam sire - multiple 4star mare, ran Badminton 3 times during her career with no jump faults xc.
The Hirtentanz - Axis - Sixtus stallion line, tracing back to Habicht and Burnus AAH, is the most versatile of the entire Trak breed and Habicht alone has produced international horses (Championship horses) for show jumping (e.g. Anne Kursinki’s Livius), eventing and dressage.
Hirtentanz’ dam line is known for dressage, but just as much for upper level eventing at the 3star level.
Saying all that though - Hirtentanz is about as far away from a TB as he can be in terms of quickness and if quickness is your goal, he is no substitute. His qualities lie elsewhere.
Carry on.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for that info Maren. His dam and dam sire were competitive dressage horses, though, and most jumper breeders are not going to be interested in a pedigree like that, especially since Traks aren’t known for producing top jumpers anymore. Hirtentanz himself apparently is not competing at 1.6m then, so I have to wonder if he is a top end jumper.
Livius competed in the 80s, by that standard on this board that is ancient history.
[QUOTE=out west;8083237]
I also don’t want to be disrespectful of any breed, but I am very interested in what the breeders and the riders of top horses say. I’ve also been in this sport for MANY years. I bred my first in ~1978, a good TB mare to one of those “new” (to the US) warmbloods - recognizing what I felt was their superiority for dressage and jumping. I have only bred 7 so I do NOT consider myself a breeder; but as a now dressage rider but former jumper rider, I am really not interested in TB any closer than 2-3 generations. I also have a Ph.D in genetics which does not make me an expert in equine genetics, but it makes me very interested in the question of whether warmbloods need the infusion of more “blood” or not. And, if so, WHY?
The modern warmblood is a very different creature then it was 30 years ago, (and the TB may be as well), so what is the reason we need to continue to add blood? I personally don’t see what it adds to the modern warmblood. If we are losing the TB traits, it really can only be because of selection against those traits. Without human selection, we aren’t going to lose those TB genes.[/QUOTE]
There are still quite a few old-fashioned horses around; the top jumping genetic pool isn’t very big; the warmblood overall could use more TB traits IMO.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8083850]
You have fulfilled your wish to be as clear and concise as PNWjumper with this post! :lol:
I don’t think you could have said it better or more tactfully. I’m starting to wonder if there is a language barrier at play in this thread.[/QUOTE]
I am genuinely curious, why do you say that, given much of what has been said on this thread?
I understand that breeders may not want to lose short term profits. HOWEVER, I personally don’t care about breeders’ short term profits and still maintain that if TBs were bred in the same way warmbloods are in Europe they would be as successful. The problem is that we have the TBs but not the interest, even though I bet Europeans would pay for good TBs and F1s if they were promoted as jumpers and dressage horses. The retired racehorse project is trying to do that, but I don’t know how many breeders are paying attention to it.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8083886]
There are still quite a few old-fashioned horses around; the top jumping genetic pool isn’t very big; the warmblood overall could use more TB traits IMO.[/QUOTE]
What qualities do you think they could use specifically from the TB?
Forwardness, heart, athleticism, sensitivity, soundness (yes, some TBs are very sound), endurance, floating gaits (because the best mover I have ever seen was a TB mare in Elizabeth, PA), and yes, even jumping ability.
So often when riding a warmblood I feel like the brake is stuck on. I remember going to the big dressage show in May when it was held in Raleigh and watching all of the people who were red-faced from trying to get their horses to go.
I’m not saying that there are not warmbloods who are naturally forward; I don’t think there are enough of them. Shoot my horse is 78% blood and I wish he was more naturally forward. And I chose a stallion that was ridden by children when he was in Germany! He competed in jumper classes (I was told GP), there with a young girl and then competed in dressage with her younger sister.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8083929]
Forwardness, heart, athleticism, sensitivity, soundness (yes, some TBs are very sound), endurance, floating gaits (because the best mover I have ever seen was a TB mare in Elizabeth, PA), and yes, even jumping ability.
So often when riding a warmblood I feel like the brake is stuck on. I remember going to the big dressage show in May when it was held in Raleigh and watching all of the people who were red-faced from trying to get their horses to go.
I’m not saying that there are not warmbloods who are naturally forward; I don’t think there are enough of them.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I think many TB come with a “go” button that was preinstalled at the factory.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8083934]
Yes, I think many TB come with a “go” button that was preinstalled at the factory.[/QUOTE]
It’s a wonderful thing, I think especially if you are a female rider.
[QUOTE=Elles;8083756]
I think we can conclude one thing from what a lot of people are saying here:
the people of the Holsteiner Verband must be completely out of their minds because there is already enough TB blood in the horse population and TB blood would be detrimental to show jumping ability anyway. As there is already enough blood in the Holsteiner population, TB is also not useful in the F2 or F3 generations. So TB is also not to be used now for the breed two or three generations further from now.[/QUOTE]
So it would seem, except the breeding director of the Verband seems to think that TB blood is needed now (see my earlier post). Sounds like there’s more than a little disagreement between the Verband and the breeders.
Some WB breeders seem very insecure, which is odd given the success of WBs in the sport horse disciplines. These breeders seem to perceive as a threat any mention or evidence that a non-WB (especially TBs) may also have sport horse abilities. It’s really too bad, because that kind of attitude makes meaningful discussions just about impossible. I really don’t understand it–the success of another horse (or breed) doesn’t mean that yours is any less successful.
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8083939]
So it would seem, except the breeding director of the Verband seems to think that TB blood is needed now (see my earlier post). Sounds like there’s more than a little disagreement between the Verband and the breeders.
Some WB breeders seem very insecure, which is odd given the success of WBs in the sport horse disciplines. These breeders seem to perceive as a threat any mention or evidence that a non-WB (especially TBs) may also have sport horse abilities. It’s really too bad, because that kind of attitude makes meaningful discussions just about impossible. I really don’t understand it–the success of another horse (or breed) doesn’t mean that yours is any less successful.[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8083902]
[/B]
I am genuinely curious, why do you say that, given much of what has been said on this thread?
I understand that breeders may not want to lose short term profits. HOWEVER, I personally don’t care about breeders’ short term profits and still maintain that if TBs were bred in the same way warmbloods are in Europe they would be as successful. The problem is that we have the TBs but not the interest, even though I bet Europeans would pay for good TBs and F1s if they were promoted as jumpers and dressage horses. The retired racehorse project is trying to do that, but I don’t know how many breeders are paying attention to it.[/QUOTE]
Bayhawk has been saying the same thing on this forum for years. I think it’s the need to repeat himself so many times that brings out his snarky side. In the post I quoted he stuck to the facts and held himself in check. Kudos to him! In spite of the snark, I have found him to be quite accurate with his facts and very generous in sharing his personal knowledge. No matter what your opinion of him, he is very knowledgeable about the horses he breeds.
It is hard to have a constructive breeding discussion with someone who has no skin in the game and outright says they don’t care about the breeder’s financial commitment. While some breeders are independently wealthy and breed as a tax write-off, most of us need to sell to continue.
IF TBs had been selectively bred for jumping for the past few decades, perhaps we would have a different scenario today. Unfortunately they were not in any number to be useful statistically. At this point, the odds and the money are not in their favor. Will that change in the future? That’s the point of this thread IMHO.
I happen to work with some riders who are very active with the retired racehorse project. (We have a local track) They have been pretty successful moving into eventing and lower level H/J and Dressage. One local trainer, a longtime TB lover, is bringing one along, hoping for the smaller GPs. I know him very well and have seen the horse. His chances are good! 
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8083939]
So it would seem, except the breeding director of the Verband seems to think that TB blood is needed now (see my earlier post). Sounds like there’s more than a little disagreement between the Verband and the breeders.
Some WB breeders seem very insecure, which is odd given the success of WBs in the sport horse disciplines. These breeders seem to perceive as a threat any mention or evidence that a non-WB (especially TBs) may also have sport horse abilities. It’s really too bad, because that kind of attitude makes meaningful discussions just about impossible. I really don’t understand it–the success of another horse (or breed) doesn’t mean that yours is any less successful.[/QUOTE]
Again, these are two distinct question. Regarding breeding, it is not a about being insecure. Breeders of sporthorses will do whatever they think is best for improving their program. This has nothing to do with sporting capacities. Even when they were used extensivly, TB were not used for their jump. WB already has massive amount of jump. They were used to refine, and to add blood. Does some WB mares out there still need the addition of blood? For sure they do. Is the TB the only answer to that point? Obviously you think they are, but many other do not. Experience of generations of breeders has shown that using TB, while improving on certain aspects, generaly has a negative impact on the jump. We understand you do not agree, and you have many horsetelex links and youtube videos to support your point. On my side, I rely on my own experience as well as the experience and opinion of a vast majority of proeminent breeders. Does it make a TB a bad option? Not necessarly as it will improve on some aspects, but their will be downturns. I think we will have to agree to disagree on that.
With regard to the performance thing, you are convinced TB are as performant as WB and you have all the right to be. However, I feel, as so many other here, that it is not correct. Most of us in America hacve started riding, and showed up to a certain level on TB. Many of us know TB very well. We just see them fading out when levels get up. It is our only point. If we do not agree, no big deal, that doesn’t make us ignorant.
Why do breeders do not use the TB anymore? It is not because they feel threatened. They feel they now have other options, without the downturns of TB. I specificaly gave the example of a breeding I am planning this year. I wanted to add blood to a KWPN mare I have. She has a superb dameline, and is quite fancy. I would like to add just a pinch of reactivity, without altering her powerfull canter and jump. I could have gone with a TB, hoping for a filly, than breed with that filly. But I chose Mylord Carthago, who is known for producing foals with a lot of blood. By using him, I have the blood I want, and I benefit from the proven genetics both of Carthago on top, and the superbe dameline of Ifrane, through her daughter Frangance de Chalus. I believe I will reach my goal of adding blood, if I have a foal, I have better chance for him to be a great sport horse and if I have a filly, the whole pedigree will be stellar, with both my mares dameline on the bottom, fragance de Chalus on top and, further down, a double up through Carthago and Lord Calando on the great mare Pera.
The question is not as simple as people always seem to bring it down to.
>>Hirtentanz himself apparently is not competing at 1.6m then, so I have to wonder if he is a top end jumper.<<
He has never been given the chance, so who knows? Does he have the scope? IMHO yes. My personal question would be the time he spends in the air vs. quicker horses. It’s all speculation because, again, he has never been shown so we don’t know.
His dam has no performance record past one material class. She was a full time mom, and a really good one. Kostolany competed in dressage and because of Gribaldi et al., he is seen as a dressage sire mostly, but he sired S level show jumpers and interm. eventers too.
I also agree that Livius is ancient history. However, Habicht had more than just him in international SJ competitions.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8084013]
Again, these are two distinct question. Regarding breeding, it is not a about being insecure. Breeders of sporthorses will do whatever they think is best for improving their program. This has nothing to do with sporting capacities. Even when they were used extensivly, TB were not used for their jump. WB already has massive amount of jump. They were used to refine, and to add blood. Does some WB mares out there still need the addition of blood? For sure they do. Is the TB the only answer to that point? Obviously you think they are, but many other do not. Experience of generations of breeders has shown that using TB, while improving on certain aspects, generaly has a negative impact on the jump. We understand you do not agree, and you have many horsetelex links and youtube videos to support your point. On my side, I rely on my own experience as well as the experience and opinion of a vast majority of proeminent breeders. Does it make a TB a bad option? Not necessarly as it will improve on some aspects, but their will be downturns. I think we will have to agree to disagree on that.
With regard to the performance thing, you are convinced TB are as performant as WB and you have all the right to be. However, I feel, as so many other here, that it is not correct. Most of us in America hacve started riding, and showed up to a certain level on TB. Many of us know TB very well. We just see them fading out when levels get up. It is our only point. If we do not agree, no big deal, that doesn’t make us ignorant.
Why do breeders do not use the TB anymore? It is not because they feel threatened. They feel they now have other options, without the downturns of TB. I specificaly gave the example of a breeding I am planning this year. I wanted to add blood to a KWPN mare I have. She has a superb dameline, and is quite fancy. I would like to add just a pinch of reactivity, without altering her powerfull canter and jump. I could have gone with a TB, hoping for a filly, than breed with that filly. But I chose Mylord Carthago, who is known for producing foals with a lot of blood. By using him, I have the blood I want, and I benefit from the proven genetics both of Carthago on top, and the superbe dameline of Ifrane, through her daughter Frangance de Chalus. I believe I will reach my goal of adding blood, if I have a foal, I have better chance for him to be a great sport horse and if I have a filly, the whole pedigree will be stellar, with both my mares dameline on the bottom, fragance de Chalus on top and, further down, a double up through Carthago and Lord Calando on the great mare Pera.
The question is not as simple as people always seem to bring it down to.[/QUOTE]
I think you raised a point here that is lost on most of the TB supporters.
The Tb Stallions were highly successful on the WB mares before because they absolutely NEEDED , NEEDED , NEEDED the Tb stallion for refinement , blood , quickness and stamina. One needs to remember that the mares were still basically the type of a workhorse. Look no further than Landgraf’s mother Warthburg. She absolutely NEEDED Ladykiller xx.
The TB Stallions are not needed today. They may be needed in the future, but they are certainly not needed today.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8083850]
You have fulfilled your wish to be as clear and concise as PNWjumper with this post! :lol:
I don’t think you could have said it better or more tactfully. I’m starting to wonder if there is a language barrier at play in this thread.[/QUOTE]
Whew ! It was hard…so hard !!! LOL.
Thank you for the compliment Tuckaway !
I was not talking about the breeders but about the people leading the Holsteiner studbook.
I was not saying that the breeders must be out of their mind, I was saying the leaders of the Holsteiner Verband must be out of their minds to want more TB genes in the gene pool. And according to a lot of people here I am right in saying that the leaders of the Holsteiner Verband must be out of their minds for wanted to have more TB genes in the Holsteiner gene pool.
At the risk of being struck down by lightning, LOL, Breeding directors are not God but I do believe they are looking for the LONG TERM needs for their breeds. But <gasp> they are human and could be wrong too. For years and years we were told to use TB, because one of the “big wigs” in “our” registry LOVED TBs. I looked at and rode enough of those F1 crosses to know we couldn’t breed those types and stay in business. THAT was the reality for us. If it has worked for others, great.
We are kind of involved the RRP and very very few of those horses are ever going to be competitive against the WBs in any of the english disciplines.
I think people should remember that when WBs first started competing in this country, they came into “sports” that at the time were dominated by TBs. But they stepped onto a level playing field with the TBs and they beat them. That is why they became popular, because they won, not because there was some anti TB conspiracy. Riders like to win, breeders like to pay their bills.
I have no skin in this game whatsover, but look at dressage mare Brentina. She is/was very heavy compared to modern WBs… old-fashioned. And she’s about 1/4 TB if I am reading her pedigree correctly.
I’m not sure whatever happened with doing embryo transfers from her, but wouldn’t one want “more blood” with her? LOVE Cumano’s explanation of why s/he would not breed a mare like this to a pure TB; s/he has to think of what market there will be for the foal if it isn’t a filly s/he wants to keep for future breeding.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
