New decision in Holstein

[Elles]

I did not say that breeding directors are God, I said they must be out of their minds :-).

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8084254]
At the risk of being struck down by lightning, LOL, Breeding directors are not God but I do believe they are looking for the LONG TERM needs for their breeds. But <gasp> they are human and could be wrong too. For years and years we were told to use TB, because one of the “big wigs” in “our” registry LOVED TBs. I looked at and rode enough of those F1 crosses to know we couldn’t breed those types and stay in business. THAT was the reality for us. If it has worked for others, great.

We are kind of involved the RRP and very very few of those horses are ever going to be competitive against the WBs in any of the english disciplines.

I think people should remember that when WBs first started competing in this country, they came into “sports” that at the time were dominated by TBs. But they stepped onto a level playing field with the TBs and they beat them. That is why they became popular, because they won, not because there was some anti TB conspiracy. Riders like to win, breeders like to pay their bills.[/QUOTE]

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8083995]
Bayhawk has been saying the same thing on this forum for years. I think it’s the need to repeat himself so many times that brings out his snarky side. In the post I quoted he stuck to the facts and held himself in check. Kudos to him! In spite of the snark, I have found him to be quite accurate with his facts and very generous in sharing his personal knowledge. No matter what your opinion of him, he is very knowledgeable about the horses he breeds.

It is hard to have a constructive breeding discussion with someone who has no skin in the game and outright says they don’t care about the breeder’s financial commitment. While some breeders are independently wealthy and breed as a tax write-off, most of us need to sell to continue.

IF TBs had been selectively bred for jumping for the past few decades, perhaps we would have a different scenario today. Unfortunately they were not in any number to be useful statistically. At this point, the odds and the money are not in their favor. Will that change in the future? That’s the point of this thread IMHO.

I happen to work with some riders who are very active with the retired racehorse project. (We have a local track) They have been pretty successful moving into eventing and lower level H/J and Dressage. One local trainer, a longtime TB lover, is bringing one along, hoping for the smaller GPs. I know him very well and have seen the horse. His chances are good! :)[/QUOTE]

He’s knowledgeable about the horses he breeds. There’s a whole big wide world beyond that.

Listen, I’ve been reading Bayhawk’s posts about TBs for years. He’s been snarky from the beginning. I’m not misunderstanding anything. I’m glad he finally managed to put up a non-snarky post in this thread, that’s really swell. I personally have not found him to be accurate with many facts beyond the small world of Holsteiner breeding. Even if I wanted to know details of Holsteiner breeding, I wouldn’t depend on someone from a bulletin board to tell me all about it. If he’s “generous with his personal knowledge” it’s because he wants to be viewed as an expert. He’s also unnecessarily generous with the snark. I find it kind of ridiculous that there are people defending him. (The fact that people defend him is probably a symptom of why the US doesn’t currently breed top jumpers and dressage horses.)

You’re concerned about your own bottom line. Why should I be? Do you possibly care about what my horses cost me? No? I didn’t think so. Nobody is making you breed horses. It’s a choice and a luxury. My interest in this is looking at a rider and spectator and being interested in where the good horses come from. If you think riders and spectators are unimportant I don’t know what to tell you. You’re not more important than they are.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Maren;8084023]
>>Hirtentanz himself apparently is not competing at 1.6m then, so I have to wonder if he is a top end jumper.<<

He has never been given the chance, so who knows? Does he have the scope? IMHO yes. My personal question would be the time he spends in the air vs. quicker horses. It’s all speculation because, again, he has never been shown so we don’t know.

His dam has no performance record past one material class. She was a full time mom, and a really good one. Kostolany competed in dressage and because of Gribaldi et al., he is seen as a dressage sire mostly, but he sired S level show jumpers and interm. eventers too.

I also agree that Livius is ancient history. However, Habicht had more than just him in international SJ competitions.[/QUOTE]

Why hasn’t he been given the chance? Did he stop competing?

I do disagree about the generations of dressage horses in his family. Looking at that line I see some GP dressage horses, some eventers, and a few jumpers, mostly low level. You see that in just about every dressage warmblood breeding line. His pedigree doesn’t scream jumper sire to me.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8084254]
At the risk of being struck down by lightning, LOL, Breeding directors are not God but I do believe they are looking for the LONG TERM needs for their breeds. But <gasp> they are human and could be wrong too. For years and years we were told to use TB, because one of the “big wigs” in “our” registry LOVED TBs. I looked at and rode enough of those F1 crosses to know we couldn’t breed those types and stay in business. THAT was the reality for us. If it has worked for others, great.

We are kind of involved the RRP and very very few of those horses are ever going to be competitive against the WBs in any of the english disciplines.

I think people should remember that when WBs first started competing in this country, they came into “sports” that at the time were dominated by TBs. But they stepped onto a level playing field with the TBs and they beat them. That is why they became popular, because they won, not because there was some anti TB conspiracy. Riders like to win, breeders like to pay their bills.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and your version is leaving out a whole other set of facts and circumstances. But you’ll believe what you want to believe.

[Cumano]

Even if I wanted to know details of Holsteiner breeding, I wouldn’t depend on someone from a bulletin board to tell me all about it. If he’s “generous with his personal knowledge” it’s because he wants to be viewed as an expert. He’s also unnecessarily generous with the snark. I find it kind of ridiculous that there are people defending him. (The fact that people defend him is probably a symptom of why the US doesn’t currently breed top jumpers and dressage horses.)

By the way, because you repeated it many times in this tread, Bayhawk is not some kind of nobody whos just trying to pass as an expert. I think many people on here know who he is (if not, I am not going to tell, I’ll let him do it if he wants), but he has both experience, results and credential in breeding good sport horses, both here and in Germany. For the record, I am not a friend of him, we do not know each other and I am almost positive he doesn’t even knows me. But behind the tone, if you tried to understand his points, their is valuable information in his posts.

I also believe that repeating again and again that no good jumpers are being produced her in America just shows how disconnected you are. Their are far less than in Europe, and the average production is of far less quality, that is right. But the quality of the best horses is constantly improving, and the number of very good young horses as well. Their are also more and more very good broodmares put into breeding her each year. If you follow, the development circuits, both in Canada and in the Us, you will see that more and more of those young horses are localy bred. We will always be behind as the ressources to develop the horses are not as accessible here as in Europe, and it is much more expensive to bring a horse to the higher levels. BUt to say no good horses are produced here is just plain wrong. You must know were to look for it. I am an amateur breeder with fairly good connections with professionnal riders and trainers, and with other breeders who share the same standards as I impose to myself. A lot of good horses are around and many players in the industry are looking at the best sources. Those horses are just not necessarily publicized on Internet or otherwise, nor are they showing with the US or Canadian flag branded on their butts.

[grayarabpony]

If you google Grand National Steeplechase youtube the video for the 2012 comes up. Swing Bill looks like a good jumper and I love the way he gallops. http://www.pedigreequery.com/swing+bill I only watched the first part of the race because I couldn’t stand watching all of the falls.

[NoDQhere]

Now I know Bayhawk doesn’t need defending and honestly I have been very offended by Bayhawk’s “delivery” in the past. (I got over it) The difference between Bayhawk (and several others on this thread) and GAP is that Bayhawk is an expert. An expert who can “walk the walk” not just “talk the talk” and if you really think what happens in Holstein doesn’t influence the rest of the WB industry you are truly looking through rose colored glasses.

There are many good horses being produced in NA and to say otherwise is just plain snarky. The NA market, for the most part is not for top of the sport horses. The folks that are breeding for the top of the sport are doing a fine job as are the people breeding for the Ammy horse. Until you have walked a mile in a “real” breeders shoes, you should just sit back and absorb what is being said!

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8084403]
Yeah, and your version is leaving out a whole other set of facts and circumstances. But you’ll believe what you want to believe.[/QUOTE]

No, GAP, I believe what statistics prove.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8084383]
He’s knowledgeable about the horses he breeds. There’s a whole big wide world beyond that.

Listen, I’ve been reading Bayhawk’s posts about TBs for years. He’s been snarky from the beginning. I’m not misunderstanding anything. I’m glad he finally managed to put up a non-snarky post in this thread, that’s really swell. I personally have not found him to be accurate with many facts beyond the small world of Holsteiner breeding. Even if I wanted to know details of Holsteiner breeding, I wouldn’t depend on someone from a bulletin board to tell me all about it. If he’s “generous with his personal knowledge” it’s because he wants to be viewed as an expert. He’s also unnecessarily generous with the snark. I find it kind of ridiculous that there are people defending him. (The fact that people defend him is probably a symptom of why the US doesn’t currently breed top jumpers and dressage horses.)

You’re concerned about your own bottom line. Why should I be? Do you possibly care about what my horses cost me? No? I didn’t think so. Nobody is making you breed horses. It’s a choice and a luxury. My interest in this is looking at a rider and spectator and being interested in where the good horses come from. If you think riders and spectators are unimportant I don’t know what to tell you. You’re not more important than they are.[/QUOTE]

This is the absolute most bizarre statement from you yet GAP. Now it is my fault…by posting on this BB… that the US doesn’t breed good jumpers and dressage horses ?

And folks that agree with me are a “symptom” of why the US isn’t breeding better jumping and dressage horses ?

Ha ! Ha ! I didn’t know I had so much power…I love it !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8084525]
Now I know Bayhawk doesn’t need defending and honestly I have been very offended by Bayhawk’s “delivery” in the past. (I got over it) The difference between Bayhawk (and several others on this thread) and GAP is that Bayhawk is an expert. An expert who can “walk the walk” not just “talk the talk” and if you really think what happens in Holstein doesn’t influence the rest of the WB industry you are truly looking through rose colored glasses.

There are many good horses being produced in NA and to say otherwise is just plain snarky. The NA market, for the most part is not for top of the sport horses. The folks that are breeding for the top of the sport are doing a fine job as are the people breeding for the Ammy horse. Until you have walked a mile in a “real” breeders shoes, you should just sit back and absorb what is being said![/QUOTE]

I’m glad you got over it ! LOL…

I personally don’t pay much attention to posters delivery as I know I can’t see their facial expressions , judge their tone , know that they are posting quickly because they’re in a hurry to cook dinner or whatever.

This is a problem with the internet. you can only really react to what you can read and sometimes it’s the wrong reaction and not indicative of the posters true intent.

I also am not an expert but thank you anyway. I’ve been going to Europe for over 20 years but am still learning every day. I’ve concentrated my efforts on Holsteiners and know them pretty well. You’re right…not all roads go thru Holstein but many do.

Holstein is responsible for a great deal of success all over Europe ,especially Holland. Just as the great TB Stallions Ladkiller xx , Cottage Son xx ,Anblick xx Marlon xx etc. were responsible for helping to shape the Holsteiner what it is.

[grayarabpony]

Ah the ignore feature is a beautiful thing! :lol:

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8084608]
Ah the ignore feature is a beautiful thing! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Your ignorance is sooooo comfortable, why would you risk disturbing it… I do not use my own ignore feature, but i sure like GAP’S, now I don’t have to keep my best jokes for myself.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8084013]
Again, these are two distinct question. Regarding breeding, it is not a about being insecure. Breeders of sporthorses will do whatever they think is best for improving their program. This has nothing to do with sporting capacities. Even when they were used extensivly, TB were not used for their jump. WB already has massive amount of jump. They were used to refine, and to add blood. Does some WB mares out there still need the addition of blood? For sure they do. Is the TB the only answer to that point? Obviously you think they are, but many other do not. Experience of generations of breeders has shown that using TB, while improving on certain aspects, generaly has a negative impact on the jump. We understand you do not agree, and you have many horsetelex links and youtube videos to support your point. On my side, I rely on my own experience as well as the experience and opinion of a vast majority of proeminent breeders. Does it make a TB a bad option? Not necessarly as it will improve on some aspects, but their will be downturns. I think we will have to agree to disagree on that.

With regard to the performance thing, you are convinced TB are as performant as WB and you have all the right to be. However, I feel, as so many other here, that it is not correct. Most of us in America hacve started riding, and showed up to a certain level on TB. Many of us know TB very well. We just see them fading out when levels get up. It is our only point. If we do not agree, no big deal, that doesn’t make us ignorant.

Why do breeders do not use the TB anymore? It is not because they feel threatened. They feel they now have other options, without the downturns of TB. I specificaly gave the example of a breeding I am planning this year. I wanted to add blood to a KWPN mare I have. She has a superb dameline, and is quite fancy. I would like to add just a pinch of reactivity, without altering her powerfull canter and jump. I could have gone with a TB, hoping for a filly, than breed with that filly. But I chose Mylord Carthago, who is known for producing foals with a lot of blood. By using him, I have the blood I want, and I benefit from the proven genetics both of Carthago on top, and the superbe dameline of Ifrane, through her daughter Frangance de Chalus. I believe I will reach my goal of adding blood, if I have a foal, I have better chance for him to be a great sport horse and if I have a filly, the whole pedigree will be stellar, with both my mares dameline on the bottom, fragance de Chalus on top and, further down, a double up through Carthago and Lord Calando on the great mare Pera.

The question is not as simple as people always seem to bring it down to.[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty sure you have me confused with someone else:

1. IIRC, nowhere have I said that WBs needed the addition of blood or that TBs were the answer to that. That’s up to the WB breeders.
2. I have not posted any horsetelex links or youtube videos on this thread, if on any thread.
3. My comments about current TB performance have been limited to their success in eventing, not show jumping or dressage.

As I’ve said before, I’m a TB fan, but I also believe that good horses come in all shapes, sizes and breeds. I really don’t care what the WB breeders do–really, breed whatever you want. By the same token, I’ll breed whatever I want.

What I do care about is how WB breeders/fans continually discount and discredit any evidence/opinion of TB ability, past or present, regardless of discipline (flat racing excluded, apparently). It also bothers me that WB breeders/fans seem to repeatedly tell us how ignorant and uninformed we are if we don’t agree with their opinions and listen to their “expertise.”

If we’d all stop arguing, maybe we could actually learn something from each other, but it has to be a 2-way conversation, not just WB folks telling the TB folks how ignorant and out-of-touch we are.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8084661]
I’m pretty sure you have me confused with someone else:

1. IIRC, nowhere have I said that WBs needed the addition of blood or that TBs were the answer to that. That’s up to the WB breeders.
2. I have not posted any horsetelex links or youtube videos on this thread, if on any thread.
3. My comments about current TB performance have been limited to their success in eventing, not show jumping or dressage.

As I’ve said before, I’m a TB fan, but I also believe that good horses come in all shapes, sizes and breeds. I really don’t care what the WB breeders do–really, breed whatever you want. By the same token, I’ll breed whatever I want.

What I do care about is how WB breeders/fans continually discount and discredit any evidence/opinion of TB ability, past or present, regardless of discipline (flat racing excluded, apparently). It also bothers me that WB breeders/fans seem to repeatedly tell us how ignorant and uninformed we are if we don’t agree with their opinions and listen to their “expertise.”

If we’d all stop arguing, maybe we could actually learn something from each other, but it has to be a 2-way conversation, not just WB folks telling the TB folks how ignorant and out-of-touch we are.[/QUOTE]

yes!!! ding ding ding!!

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8084661]
I’m pretty sure you have me confused with someone else:

1. IIRC, nowhere have I said that WBs needed the addition of blood or that TBs were the answer to that. That’s up to the WB breeders.
2. I have not posted any horsetelex links or youtube videos on this thread, if on any thread.
3. My comments about current TB performance have been limited to their success in eventing, not show jumping or dressage.

As I’ve said before, I’m a TB fan, but I also believe that good horses come in all shapes, sizes and breeds. I really don’t care what the WB breeders do–really, breed whatever you want. By the same token, I’ll breed whatever I want.

What I do care about is how WB breeders/fans continually discount and discredit any evidence/opinion of TB ability, past or present, regardless of discipline (flat racing excluded, apparently). It also bothers me that WB breeders/fans seem to repeatedly tell us how ignorant and uninformed we are if we don’t agree with their opinions and listen to their “expertise.”

If we’d all stop arguing, maybe we could actually learn something from each other, but it has to be a 2-way conversation, not just WB folks telling the TB folks how ignorant and out-of-touch we are.[/QUOTE]

Zipperfoot, nothing in my post was personnal to you. I re read my post And i understand you may have understood otherwise. When I say “You”, I mean people arguing against my point of view, in general, in this post. Just read it back, without feeling treatened, and keeping in mind I was not trying to be snarky or agressive. I am just explaining my position. We do not discount or discredit anyone or anything. I just explain how I feel the TB improved the WB, and how it could improve now and in the future. I also express what I feel are it slimitations, and how I feel their are other solutions to the use of the TB.

Quite honnestly, their is only one person I qualified as ignorant and it is GAP. NOt because she/he did not have the same opinion as me, nore because I believe what other said about him/her. I don’t know him or her at all. BUt in this post, he/she said so many things that clearly showed that he/she did not have a clue what he/she is talking about when it come to breeding or sport. They’re have been many other posters here that did not agree with me, and I think the arguments, although sometimes heated, were realy constructive.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8084731]
Zipperfoot, nothing in my post was personnal to you. I re read my post And i understand you may have understood otherwise. When I say “You”, I mean people arguing against my point of view, in general, in this post. Just read it back, without feeling treatened, and keeping in mind I was not trying to be snarky or agressive. I am just explaining my position. We do not discount or discredit anyone or anything. I just explain how I feel the TB improved the WB, and how it could improve now and in the future. I also express what I feel are it slimitations, and how I feel their are other solutions to the use of the TB.

Quite honnestly, their is only one person I qualified as ignorant and it is GAP. NOt because she/he did not have the same opinion as me, nore because I believe what other said about him/her. I don’t know him or her at all. BUt in this post, he/she said so many things that clearly showed that he/she did not have a clue what he/she is talking about when it come to breeding or sport. They’re have been many other posters here that did not agree with me, and I think the arguments, although sometimes heated, were realy constructive.[/QUOTE]

That’s OK–I just thought you were directing your comments to me, since you quoted my post.

You’ve made some good points in your posts–not that I necessarily agree with everything you said, but we don’t really have to agree, right?

However…Do you really think it’s conducive to having a productive conversation to qualify someone as ignorant on a public bulletin board based on what someone else said about them? Even if you don’t think they have a clue about breeding or sport or anything else, what purpose does calling them ignorant serve?

[ynl063w]

The problem with these threads is that the TB enthusiasts take everything so personally, and base their opinions that TBs are better than WBs on feelings and anecdotal evidence rather than facts:

So often when riding a warmblood I feel like the brake is stuck on. I remember going to the big dressage show in May when it was held in Raleigh and watching all of the people who were red-faced from trying to get their horses to go.

Or they point out why a TB is great for the everyday female rider, when the discussions are about international level competition, where the gender of the rider is not something that generally matters.

It’s a wonderful thing, I think especially if you are a female rider.

The problem is that we have the TBs but not the interest, even though I bet Europeans would pay for good TBs and F1s if they were promoted as jumpers and dressage horses.

If TBs were superior to WBs for international competition, people would be using them. And if someone thinks it’s a matter of a marketing problem, start marketing the TBs and F1s and make yourself some money.

I think people should remember that when WBs first started competing in this country, they came into “sports” that at the time were dominated by TBs. But they stepped onto a level playing field with the TBs and they beat them. That is why they became popular, because they won, not because there was some anti TB conspiracy. Riders like to win, breeders like to pay their bills.

This is such a great point that bears repeating. There is not, nor has there ever been, a conspiracy against TBs.

What I do care about is how WB breeders/fans continually discount and discredit any evidence/opinion of TB ability, past or present, regardless of discipline (flat racing excluded, apparently).

This is simply not true, and it never has been on any of these threads as long as I’ve been reading them (for years). Not one person on this thread has made any such statements about TBs; in fact, those who breed WBs and participate here have gone out of their way to acknowledge how crucially important the TB has been in the development of today’s warmblood. Pointing out that the TB is not needed today IN THE SAME WAY that it has been in the past is in no way discounting and discrediting the TB’s ability, past or present. It has also been acknowledged that there is a current need, and there will be a future need, for TBs in WB breeding, and it has been explained WHY the WB breeders are not AT THIS TIME on board with using TBs in their breeding programs. My understanding from the posts here is that the leaders of the registries (verbands, or whatever) are apparently looking ahead to the time when the breeders WILL want to use the TB, and are doing what is necessary today to ensure that the best TBs are available when that time comes.

Don’t take it personally, it’s not about you.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8084661]
If we’d all stop arguing, maybe we could actually learn something from each other, but it has to be a 2-way conversation, not just WB folks telling the TB folks how ignorant and out-of-touch we are.[/QUOTE]

Well for starters, most of us on this thread HAVE been learning things from each other and enjoying the conversation with one or two exceptions.

But if this is your point, then why does it seem to be okay for “the TB people” to call “the warmblood people” ignorant (and GAP telling each and every person who disagrees with her that they’re now on “ignore” is certainly doing just that!)? Despite all of her screeching about “the lies! the lies!” being told about her, not a single opinion I’ve formed relates to anything that anyone else has said about GAP, but as Cumano and others have stated, by what she exposes as her own experience and knowledge in her posts.

And on the “getting personal with the insults front” I will say a big thank you to GAP for informing me that my TB jumper is mediocre and my WBs will never come anywhere close to what he’s done. Oh, and the repeated factoid that “100% of my WBs won’t make it to 1.60m.” Well gosh, that just changes everything, and here just I thought I could do so much better than the many many riders I consider far better than me… :rolleyes: If that’s not hurling personal insults, then I don’t know what is!

On the same topic - great post, ynl063w!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8084934]
The problem with these threads is that the TB enthusiasts take everything so personally, and base their opinions that TBs are better than WBs on feelings and anecdotal evidence rather than facts:

Or they point out why a TB is great for the everyday female rider, when the discussions are about international level competition, where the gender of the rider is not something that generally matters.

If TBs were superior to WBs for international competition, people would be using them. And if someone thinks it’s a matter of a marketing problem, start marketing the TBs and F1s and make yourself some money.

This is such a great point that bears repeating. There is not, nor has there ever been, a conspiracy against TBs.

This is simply not true, and it never has been on any of these threads as long as I’ve been reading them (for years). Not one person on this thread has made any such statements about TBs; in fact, those who breed WBs and participate here have gone out of their way to acknowledge how crucially important the TB has been in the development of today’s warmblood. Pointing out that the TB is not needed today IN THE SAME WAY that it has been in the past is in no way discounting and discrediting the TB’s ability, past or present. It has also been acknowledged that there is a current need, and there will be a future need, for TBs in WB breeding, and it has been explained WHY the WB breeders are not AT THIS TIME on board with using TBs in their breeding programs. My understanding from the posts here is that the leaders of the registries (verbands, or whatever) are apparently looking ahead to the time when the breeders WILL want to use the TB, and are doing what is necessary today to ensure that the best TBs are available when that time comes.

Don’t take it personally, it’s not about you.[/QUOTE]

I really like this ! ^^^^ Super…especially the last sentence.

[drkarins]

This thread is interesting but I think the forest has been lost in the trees at times. Hyperion did a good job, I think, of trying to bring it together but that was many posts ago.

Like many things in life, breeding is an art not a science. If A + B always yielded a grand prix dressage/jumping/eventing horse, we would all do A + B and know exactly the formula for success.

And what is success? Are we all breeding for a Picasso? Maybe some of us like Picasso, some Warhol, and some think a funny Garfield cartoon is as good as it gets.

Anyone who says their way is THE way is, I believe, way off base. Again, while there may be some basic tenets to breeding that we would all agree upon, much of it is nuance and preference and style. And it would be naive to presume that market forces and finances aren’t hugely involved, especially at the level of the breeder.

There seem to be two camps emerging in this thread, those who believe the infusion of a higher degree of TB blood will be vital to the future of the sporthorse and those who are dubious about the current need for TB blood, at least in the F1 generation. Great! I love when we disagree as it means people are going to try different things and creativity and experimentation almost always - eventually - leads to improvement.

How we as individual breeders decide to do this, and to what extent, will depend on our own preferences and design and comfort level. In the end, we can’t all breed a 1.60m Olympic horse though we sure may try. But perhaps we can all agree that our differences may actually be what improves the sport and time will tell, vis a vie this specific thread, what the TB means to the future of the sporthorse.

On a side note, I would like to say that while I find the arguments put forward by the TB group to be interesting (at times) and provocative, my personal breeding choices remain unaltered and would not include TB stallions – but I continue to read educated posts with an open mind and thank the posters for their thoughtfulness. But (a) I breed for jumpers which I think is vastly different than breeding eventers and (b) I do wish those of you using TB stallions here in the USA the very best of luck as I fervently believe that we can and will be as successful as our European counterparts in breeding horses for the top of sport.

Time will tell how we go about doing this…