New decision in Holstein

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=foursocks;8085580]
I am not a breeder, I am a rider, but I have long been interested in this subject. I have a TB and I have a WB, and I feel like the two of them exemplify many of the good and bad stereotypes of both sides. It is really interesting to go from one to the other because they have entirely different strengths and weaknesses.

My TB has great scope but loves XC, tolerates stadium, and wins the dressage if he is relaxed, so he events. As someone mentioned can be typical amongst TBs he likes to stand off the fences, not jump from the base. He is sensitive and requires a very particular, tactful ride, and I have never reached the bottom of his stamina. He is built along lovely, big, classic lines and is at his very best and happiest galloping XC. I tried show jumping with him but the jump offs made him nervous and he would lose his natural carefulness and fling his legs around, so eventing is his thing now.

My WB has super jumping lines, top and bottom. I can jump him from nearly underneath the fence and he will go up and over without an issue. Like my TB he has wonderful suspension, but he is much easier to get to sit- I had to teach my TB that, but my WB is built for it. He is also lazy and needs his engine monitored fairly consistently- if I could change anything about him I would interject more blood closer up in his pedigree. He has very little until several generations back and I think I pay for it in effort. On the other hand, he is incredibly, superbly athletic, has a very good mind, and loves to jump. I don’t have to have long, intense conversations with him as I do with my TB when he gets nervous because my WB doesn’t really get nervous. He’s a good egg and even when he’s being naughty (he’s only 6) it’s easy to get him back on track.

Strengths and weaknesses- my horses display a lot of the ones stereotypical of their types. My WB would make a terrible event horse- retraining him to jump flatter across the big XC tables and such like a good event horse would be stupid and a waste of his talent, but it comes naturally to my TB. I wouldn’t trade either of them, and each has great value in his preferred niche.[/QUOTE]

My mare preferred to stand off from fences too, although she did it because she could. I think it can be a simple rideability issue. She had so much scope that training level eventing was pretty much a joke for her. When the jumps got bigger and /or she was relaxed enough that I could collect her canter, she had no trouble jumping from the base of a jump. She was a careful horse and always took care of herself.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Ammy;8086114]
Yes! Bahawk’s manner is poor, but what he says is correct.

I used to love TBs, but they are now mere shadows of their former selves.[/QUOTE]

I’ve never been told my manner is poor. This is a new one to go with my many labels.

[omare]

“I really think they opened it up to help with the search. What if someone finds a Tb stallion that crosses really well, that wasn’t presented as a stallion to Holsteiner Verband.”
This may be very true as I read (as I can only read to find these things as I was not around then) the verband used in essence the same approachthe first time in finding the right xx to use when modernizing -try a wide base of xx stallions to see what will work.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8086392]
BS. Scores and scores of riders will tell you the same thing.

A female international rider would appreciate a sensitive horse just like anybody else. Besides, most horses bred to be top jumpers don’t end up being top jumpers. They end up in ammy hands because they don’t have the talent to jump top end courses. How many people on here have bred international level jumpers, besides Wang Chung bred by Tom Reed? http://www.morningside-stud.com/WangChungM2S.html

People aren’t going to use them if they aren’t being marketed as a made jumper. But how European purpose bred horses took over has been discussed ad nauseum on this board too, and it not just due to a supposed lack of talent on the part of the Thoroughbred. Those of us who know Thoroughbreds know this.

I never said there was a “conspiracy” against TBs. I think American breeders dropped the ball by not using the talented TBs available to them. If you don’t think courses are built to suit warmbloods (especially in eventing), I’ve got 50 acres of swampland I’d like to sell you…

I don’t think the last para you quoted was mine, but I’ll answer anyway. WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN READING? :lol: I think your assessment is completely off. I have to wonder, where do you think these TBs that will be used in the future come from, anyway? The Verband directors can’t really do anything if breeders won’t cooperate with them.[/QUOTE]

I really can’t waste my time debating with someone who not only doesn’t understand the meaning of the words “anecdotal evidence” (even when given an example), but also seems to have a very difficult time reading for comprehension. Seriously, I don’t know what points you were addressing in your post, but they certainly weren’t mine!

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8086465]
I really can’t waste my time debating with someone who not only doesn’t understand the meaning of the words “anecdotal evidence” (even when given an example), but also seems to have a very difficult time reading for comprehension. Seriously, I don’t know what points you were addressing in your post, but they certainly weren’t mine![/QUOTE]

More insults, nice. You always act like this. The points I addressed absolutely were your points, copied straight from your post. I understand the point of anecdote and my reading comprehension is great. We’re not discussing scientific articles here but the experiences of different people. You have missed many of the points that people who support the continued use of TBs have been making.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Ammy;8086380]
Hey, if they do something impressive, let us know! There are always exceptions to the rule.[/QUOTE]

They’re all pretty impressive eaters…!

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8086248]
What’s confusing to me is that the Holsteiner Verband officials seem to think that TB blood is needed today, but the actual breeders say no. Why would the HV officials advocate something that would be detrimental? Also, are the HV officials not also breeders?[/QUOTE]

I do not think it would be detrimental in the long run. I don’t think it is needed right now but not detrimental on a long terme. But evidently the HV thinks it remains necessary. The Verband has a ‘‘Macro vision’’ of the breeding population. They have a breeding population point of vue, and their objectives mays be on a longer terme. But each breeder may think in terme ofwhat horses he has in front of him. If he uses the TB, it may be detrimental on short term for results he could probably hope for in a longer term. If other options, ie warmblood stallions full of blood, are available to him, with less of the inconvenients associated with the TB stallion, it is normal that this wb stallion be the option that he will favour. To me, their is not even a contradiction between the Verbands position and this breeders position. Only two different point of vue on a same issue.

[grayarabpony]

Pedigree of the 2013 Maryland Hunt Cup winner: http://www.pedigreequery.com/professor+maxwell

Pedigree of GP jumper and Puissance horse, apparently just retired last year: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thomas+edison
https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx

[J.A.Martin]

I can’t believe this has gone on for 35 pages…

[Bachus]

I actually do not want to reply but I have read so much rubbish that I want to write one post. About the question if the Holsteiner horse needs TB, the answer is YES. The modern Holsteiner horse is only 60 years old. I was last weekend at a free jumping contest with horses from three important regions in Holstein, there were several mares that could use a direct TB. The day after was the spring auction and yes offcoarse there you see modern selected horses. But Dr. Nissen has seen more Holsteiners then we all together have seen. There are still breeders who have the courage to use a TB!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;8087528]
I actually do not want to reply but I have read so much rubbish that I want to write one post. About the question if the Holsteiner horse needs TB, the answer is YES. The modern Holsteiner horse is only 60 years old. I was last weekend at a free jumping contest with horses from three important regions in Holstein, there were several mares that could use a direct TB. The day after was the spring auction and yes offcoarse there you see modern selected horses. But Dr. Nissen has seen more Holsteiners then we all together have seen. There are still breeders who have the courage to use a TB![/QUOTE]

"Rubbish " ? You call the peoples opinions here “rubbish” ? Who do you think you are ?

I’ll tell you in my opinion what is “rubbish”. YOUR statement is “rubbish” seeing as you’ve never owned a horse , bred a horse or competed a horse. Seeing as you have never owned a horse ,bred a horse or competed a horse…how would you ever know if a mare needed a TB or not ? As a matter of fact , how would you know what any mare would need ? And please don’t tell us again how you have made stallion selections for breeders. Unless your name is on the papers as the breeder…you are not the breeder.

I think maybe you should stick to writing articles and leave the breeding to those who actually breed.

[omare]

Ok so if the word rubbish was removed from Bachus. post it would just be relating her observations–which is what I thought was most valued here—first hand observations–I don’t think observations require being a breeder.

I have to say, watching some of the Miami show there are so very blooded looking and riding horses running around that course!

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=omare;8088157]
I have to say, watching some of the Miami show there are so very blooded looking and riding horses running around that course![/QUOTE]

I doubt anyone participating on this thread would tell you that you are absolutely, completely wrong in your opinion, but the point, with regards to this thread, is that none of them are, in fact, thoroughbreds.

[omare]

Yes–my point too. They are not thoroughbred-I dont have a problem with that-- they are a specialized bred bunch of horses many of which have a strong blood influence. I do not see how any closed breed book (such as the thoroughbred) could accomplish such a specialized goal so efficiently as an open breed book can which has the flexibility to reach that specialized goal by looking outside of itself when needed.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=omare;8088157]
I have to say, watching some of the Miami show there are so very blooded looking and riding horses running around that course![/QUOTE]

Which is why (I think) so many of the posters on this thread wonder if TBs are needed, now. I’m hopeful that the TBs allowed in by the Verbands would be exceptional individuals, because adding in just any TB doesn’t do the WB any good.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;8088157]
Ok so if the word rubbish was removed from Bachus. post it would just be relating her observations–which is what I thought was most valued here—first hand observations–I don’t think observations require being a breeder.

I have to say, watching some of the Miami show there are so very blooded looking and riding horses running around that course![/QUOTE]

You are correct…you don’t need to be a breeder to have an observation or to relay that observation but when you get on your high horse and call what people have said here “rubbish”…that’s where I draw the line.

I promise you…there are many people who have taken their time to post their “rubbish” here that know way more than Bachus.

[vineyridge]

Bachus is a well respected horse journalist, just as Chris Hector is a well respected horse journalist who doesn’t happen to breed.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8089019]
Bachus is a well respected horse journalist, just as Chris Hector is a well respected horse journalist who doesn’t happen to breed.[/QUOTE]

Viney , you once again show you don’t know what or who you are talking about.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8089623]
Viney , you once again show you don’t know what or who you are talking about.[/QUOTE]

I know more than you think. I know she did quite good work, published by Chris Hector, on the history of Heraldik. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she weren’t more respected in Holstein than you are.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8089623]
Viney , you once again show you don’t know what or who you are talking about.[/QUOTE]

This is so unnecessary. Please stop attacking well-respected people on this board.