I think it is an interesting decision. It can be said there is no need to use TB but when trying to breed a freak - I.e a horse that can win at 1.60 level - it may be nice with the right mare, to think out of the box somewhat, and have the choice. Stallions such as Beg (now deceased) interest me. A Russian TB who himself show jumped and evented at advanced levels and was graded elite trakehner. This would appear to be the type of stallion envisaged. Maren would be able to say more about Beg as an elite trakhener, but from what little there is on the net, he produced many premium daughters and 5 approved sons, 2 who competed at FEI level in dressage and show jumping respectively - though the dressage horse (home grove Prokoviev) was also an exceptionally talented jumper.
âHow is his jump?â
He has never been performance tested --Ironic perhaps but too my amateur eye his movement seems to be where his attributes might lie even though his dam line is all about jump. He has a lovely lovely uphill canter (as does his brother) and a superior trot.I think if we ever found a mare for him it might have to be one of those dual jumper/dressage lines (Contender type lines??) But experimenting is so expensive if it does not work --horses live a long timeâI can appreciate why people do not take chances!
Keeping horses period is expensive. lol
So has he been used for breeding at all?
Btw I was watching a video of Special Memories on crosscountry with Phillip Dutton. He looks like he could have been a super event horse too. Are you familiar with what his kids are doing?
No.
I think he could have gone either way. The UL rider wanted him. But he got shipped sick to an event (thankfully the owner was there) with pneumonia then competed three weeks later after only being ridden a day maybe â so the plug got pulled on that. He was the type of horse you could do that too. That is one thing about blooded horses and particularly certain blooded horsesâthey will keep giving.
He has some interesting youngsters coming along. He did have the flatter hunter trot which now -I wonder would it be enough?
Sent you a pm.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8084383]
Youâre concerned about your own bottom line. Why should I be? Do you possibly care about what my horses cost me? No? I didnât think so. Nobody is making you breed horses. Itâs a choice and a luxury. My interest in this is looking at a rider and spectator and being interested in where the good horses come from. If you think riders and spectators are unimportant I donât know what to tell you. Youâre not more important than they are.[/QUOTE]
Well, if all those people you donât care about (breeders) decided to stop breeding, you would not have the opportunity to sit in your recliner while you loftily pontificate about subjects you know absolutely nothing about.
If breeders donât breed and riders donât ride, all you âspectatorsâ would be sitting around looking at nothing.
SeriouslyâŠGAP, your ego is only equaled by your never-ending ignoranceâŠ
If all the sport horse breeders stopped breeding, there would be a lot more OTTBs in the upper echelons of sport. < grin>
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8102984]
If all the sport horse breeders stopped breeding, there would be a lot more OTTBs in the upper echelons of sport. < grin>[/QUOTE]
If the OTTBâs could consistently get the job done , all those sporthorse breeders would still be using them. <grin>
If nothing else, GAPâs comment about the finances of the equine industry offers insight into why the US-based system may fail to produce top sport horses. In Europe, the breeders actually do breed for income (not as a luxury) and have a fabulous, enduring, and generational relationship with their consumers (riders, spectators etc) whom they care very much about. Those traditions are largely lacking in the USA â though there are plenty of breeders who do so not as a luxury but for economic profit and sustainability. Until the riders - pro and ammy - come to know and appreciate the breeders and bloodlines, I suspect we will continue to struggle to keep up with our counterparts in other parts of the world.
This thread has also turned, once again, into the TB vs warmblood argument. Ignoring some of the more obvious uneducated comments, there are some very interesting opinions to be considered on both sides of the table. As I stated many, many posts ago, breeding is largely an experiment so I actually applaud and enjoy this debate (the polite and educated portions) as there is no such thing as a certain formula for success when it comes to breeding. Sure, some basic tenets but otherwise, itâs a matter of opinion and preference with many, many years of patience to see what you produced.
In terms of the Holsteiner Verband/Dr Nissen opening up breeding to outside stallions, it is important to note he is not simply promoting TB blood. He is equally enthusiastic about SF, for example. Just as there is a debate here about influx of TB blood, within the HV and amongst the breeders the same debate exists. Like Bayhawk, my personal experience in Holstein is that the breeders will not use TB stallions on any meaningful scale with the current offerings though there is enthusiasm for the SF stallions. Is this because of economics or do they believe the horses wonât jump as well as the other warmbloods? Probably both as pretty much impossible to separate it out when most of the breeders, even the âsmall onesâ, do so for the sake of a profit and the riders arenât looking for high percent of TB blood in the jumper arena. [Note: Eventing, yes.]
But I applaud my USA TB enthusiasts, and I hope you do find that winning formula as I do genuinely believe that the US can and will (and has) produce top sport horses for the jumper ring. Personally, I am not using TB blood in my program and no argument made here has compelled me to do so but I have learned from your information and examples - and it has made me think carefully about selections. So please, continue the educated and informed debate so we might learn from one another if not to change our strategies then to think carefully about the path we choose and the options available.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8102937]
Well, if all those people you donât care about (breeders) decided to stop breeding, you would not have the opportunity to sit in your recliner while you loftily pontificate about subjects you know absolutely nothing about.
If breeders donât breed and riders donât ride, all you âspectatorsâ would be sitting around looking at nothing.
SeriouslyâŠGAP, your ego is only equaled by your never-ending ignoranceâŠ[/QUOTE]
Iâd go to the track. Thereâs a lot of wonderful horses there. Iâve owned 2 OTTBs and they were amazing.
Why on earth would I care about you?
Not really.
There are tons of hobby breeders in Europe and I believe they make up the majority of horses bred. Lots were also farmers but the idea they are all professionals is not true. I must have toured over 40 top farms in Holland and there were many breeders that did not do it as a full time job and had other income.
And they out produce us because they breed so many more horses. I read there are 6000 Holsteiner breeders and 4000 foals a year? How many are born in NA? 100 or 200? BayhawkâŠ
At two hundred it would be 3%.
And I will not drop names but I know of horses sold to world famous riders, from NA. These people have serious resources and can buy horses from anywhere in the world. Unless they are registered with a NA registry, you cannot pick them out easily unless you have background. Lots of them are doing well in comparison to how many are bred.
As for the breeders in NA that are breeding for the amateur marketâŠmany use Tb or part Tb mares. Nothing wrong with that but the fact speaks for itself. Tb mares were/are used prevalently already. You just donât see it in breeders that are breeding for the top of jumping and dressage. Of course eventing, you need that Tb influence.
Horses in the Holsteiner registry have got to be crossed out to something. Surely no one would argue with Dr. Nissen about that.
Iâve been a little surprised by the size/heft/ heaviness of some of the Belgian bred horses in spite of having SF up close.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8103050]
Not really.
There are tons of hobby breeders in Europe and I believe they make up the majority of horses bred. Lots were also farmers but the idea they are all professionals is not true. I must have toured over 40 top farms in Holland and there were many breeders that did not do it as a full time job and had other income.
And they out produce us because they breed so many more horses. I read there are 6000 Holsteiner breeders and 4000 foals a year? How many are born in NA? 100 or 200? BayhawkâŠ
At two hundred it would be 3%.
And I will not drop names but I know of horses sold to world famous riders, from NA. These people have serious resources and can buy horses from anywhere in the world. Unless they are registered with a NA registry, you cannot pick them out easily unless you have background. Lots of them are doing well in comparison to how many are bred.
As for the breeders in NA that are breeding for the amateur marketâŠmany use Tb or part Tb mares. Nothing wrong with that but the fact speaks for itself. Tb mares were/are used prevalently already. You just donât see it in breeders that are breeding for the top of jumping and dressage. Of course eventing, you need that Tb influence.[/QUOTE]
I did not mean to imply that European breeders are huge outfits, like equine puppy mills. Rather, whether they are breeding 1 or 100, it is often a business rather than a pet project as was implied. And some still do combine it with other agricultural interests that are the primary income (lots of pig farming in Holstein). And most continue to do it as they do make a profit as the years go by, not as a luxury or for fun as GAP implied.
The European numbers are indeed different and their ammies are not exactly like the US ammy market. While it seems there will continue to be a role for the quality TB in the USA but I am not sure of the future of the TB in breeding for top, professional level jumpers.
I didnât say anything about German breeders, drkarins, although itâs true that having horses is a choice and a luxury wherever you are.
I would imagine they approach breeding horses in a much more professional manner than some of what I see on here. Otherwise they really would lose money and customers would go on down the road. Nobody is owed a living or even a profit breeding horses.
(And we have the super secret top American bred horses! Who are they?)
I attended the International Omaha Show this past weekend and was able to watch many pretty darn nice jumpers. It wasnât too hard to see that the Holsteiners are the horse of choice for jumping. I was incredibly impressed with two horses by Casall ? They were beautiful and wow, what fabulous jumpers. I didnât have a pen, or a start list and my memory is not what it used to be so I donât know who they were. I sure think Casall might be in one of our girls future. The Grand Prix was a ** (1.45)
I do not think you will be able to get to Casall-but maybe a son? I was wondering who the best sons are of Casall --I love Connor- I thought somebody said he can throw a little less refined --but I may mis-remember thatâPerhaps he would like our F1 or F2 xx crossed mares-- perhaps â for those of us that went down that road and drank that xx poison (tongue in cheek. :))
I am not sure what Connor is doing performance wise.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8103124]
Horses in the Holsteiner registry have got to be crossed out to something. Surely no one would argue with Dr. Nissen about that.
Iâve been a little surprised by the size/heft/ heaviness of some of the Belgian bred horses in spite of having SF up close.[/QUOTE]
Why were you surprised with the size/heft/heaviness of some Belgian horses in spite having SF up close? Is the SF usualy a refining breed?
Size and refinement are not synonimous of âbloodâ You can find one of the best example in Belgium. Darco is big and heavy, and produces big and heavy. However, he is genreraly known to produce horses with sufficient blood. You will often found his daughters to be bred with bigger stallions such as Nabab de RĂȘve, etc. I think it is important, when analysing the situation, to go beyond the physical attribute of the horse. A big horse, with a lot of power and a large stride, but with reactivity, elasticity and reflexes, in my mind, is better than a smaller horse full of blood but limited in scope and without enough stride to be able to jump on a longer distance because he cannot get collected before the fence.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8103631]
I attended the International Omaha Show this past weekend and was able to watch many pretty darn nice jumpers. It wasnât too hard to see that the Holsteiners are the horse of choice for jumping. I was incredibly impressed with two horses by Casall ? They were beautiful and wow, what fabulous jumpers. I didnât have a pen, or a start list and my memory is not what it used to be so I donât know who they were. I sure think Casall might be in one of our girls future. The Grand Prix was a ** (1.45)[/QUOTE]
Casall is one of the best breeding stallions in the world. His offspring are in every major GP in the world and so many more are coming.
[QUOTE=omare;8104002]
I do not think you will be able to get to Casall-but maybe a son? I was wondering who the best sons are of Casall --I love Connor- I thought somebody said he can throw a little less refined --but I may mis-remember thatâPerhaps he would like our F1 or F2 xx crossed mares-- perhaps â for those of us that went down that road and drank that xx poison (tongue in cheek. :))
I am not sure what Connor is doing performance wise.[/QUOTE]
Omare I believe you are thinking of this post by RyTimMick:
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6711079]He is looking to be a promising young stallion. He tends to bring lots of leg and power. I noticed many have very good shoulders. Good minds and very good movement for a jumper. He is not known for improving toplines/croupâs. I had one a couple of years ago and the new owner is keeping him a stallion for the moment. Here is a picture of him earlier this summer as a yearling.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
and earler as a foal at his inspection where he was tied for the second highest foal scores in the country.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
Here is his breeding.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/corsen+sr
I saw a bunch in Germany and some could be a bit heavy, but he is putting nice foals on the ground for sure.
I would recommend a blooded mare with lots of frame and a good topline that isnât too heavy or too large.
Tim[/QUOTE]
Wow, some unbelievable attitude here! I care very much about the breeders - thats where I hope to find my future top quality horses! I have had OTTBâs in the past, nice horses but couldnât hold a candle to the purpose bred horses Iâve had more recently. (Actually looked at one of Kytzkeâs - quite nice! Bought from another North American Breeder, and I hope they will be in business for a long time)
As far as the ammy market - I think ammys need top quality too. My daughter did the Junior Jumpers on a wonderful SF mare-who had scope to spare. That scope to spare is critical. Most juniors and ammys will make mistakes, and that scope can keep them out of trouble.
