[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8106354]
Yes, absolutely. Just making the point that the Dutch warmblood has a very heavy contribution from Holstein. Even Zavall is mostly Holstein blood.[/QUOTE]
Yes, KWPN is a little like Holsteiner, but better, younger and sexier…
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106368]
Why would I post pictures for you?
I’m not inclined to help you with anything.[/QUOTE]
Well allrighty then! Just as I thought 
So, back at the ranch…Are there any Casall sons in NA available fresh?
Dakota at Hyperion Stud.
The web site says fresh is available in April only.
There are no photos of his foals.
Perhaps it is his first season standing ?
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8106497]
Well allrighty then! Just as I thought ;)[/QUOTE]
Of course I’m sure you think that means that they weren’t talented horses. They were. I just don’t want to help you. Why would I? You’re not actually interested in seeing pictures of them. You’ve dismissed every other example of talented TBs.
Are you done trolling yet? As far as I’m concerned you are.
I hesitate to say this, but there was an example of a talented TB showing at FEI level - owned by a COTHer who has posted on this thread multiple times - and the only one who dismissed it as “good but not great” was … GAP.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106595]
Of course I’m sure you think that means that they weren’t talented horses. They were. I just don’t want to help you. Why would I? You’re not actually interested in seeing pictures of them. You’ve dismissed every other example of talented TBs.
Are you done trolling yet? As far as I’m concerned you are.[/QUOTE]
Oh for Pete’s sake, how does I or anyone asking you to show us what you have done, “helping me”? You present yourself as an expert, expect people to want to see proof.
Quite the contrary, I am VERY interested in successful TBs, nowhere have I dismissed any successful horse, of any breed. I have said that, for the most part, the TB of today is a very different from the TB of yesterday.
I am very much “a good horse is a good horse”. My very best friend is heavily involved in the TB industry so I look at a lot of them. Just this morning I said to her that I wish I could find a couple of TB mares similar to a gelding she has, that I REALLY like. So, no, don’t try to make me out as anti TB, just because I asked to see some “proof” from you of your accomplishments riding TBs.
[QUOTE=out west;8104457]
Wow, some unbelievable attitude here! I care very much about the breeders - thats where I hope to find my future top quality horses! I have had OTTB’s in the past, nice horses but couldn’t hold a candle to the purpose bred horses I’ve had more recently. (Actually looked at one of Kytzke’s - quite nice! Bought from another North American Breeder, and I hope they will be in business for a long time)
As far as the ammy market - I think ammys need top quality too. My daughter did the Junior Jumpers on a wonderful SF mare-who had scope to spare. That scope to spare is critical. Most juniors and ammys will make mistakes, and that scope can keep them out of trouble.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the kind words. And you saw poor Shah when she was in a serious fugly stage AND growing her winter hair.
But update: that filly sold to a young dressage pro for her own personal GP horse. She took Shah to an Alfredo Hernandez clinic after Shah had about 3 months training (and the 1st 3 wks were done by a track exercise guy, just to make sure most of the buck was out :D).
Nicole (the owner) has been very generous in sharing Shah’s progress when she can…she got someone to tape this brief moment in the lesson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4tUnhzNcHU
AH was extremely impressed with Shah and both feel the cornerstones of GP (P/P) will be cake for her. So assuming all the stars align, she should make it all the way. Now, who knows if she will be a 65% GP horse or a 85% GP horse…no one can tell.
GAP’s comments are personal – when I finally called her out during that thread on linebreeding she got very hostile. Called my horses crap (NOT her exact words, but the intent was the same).
Again, I enjoy “debating” the various aspects of breeding/genetics/talent with other breeders and other people who actually have a basis for their knowledge.
When I want the answer to a dressage training question (for example), I don’t query TL riders on COTH. I go to ACTUAL DRESSAGE RIDERS I know who are all riding at least at 4th level.
When I want the answer to a breeding question, I ask ACTUAL BREEDERS who have produced (IMHO) quality horses.
And when I don’t know what I’m talking about, I either admit that or keep my mouth shut.
It’s a free country as they say…so everybody can express an opinion. But when that opinion is not supported with much actual REAL LIFE experience AND it is presented with unbelievable arrogance it grates on me. Then when we add to the mix a person who actually has the gall to belittle the opinion of people who actually DO have a valid background on which that opinion was formed…geeze!!!
It’s just too much. And as we have seen, GAP gets very defensive when iall of this is pointed out.
BTW, regarding the actual issue posted in this thread: I have not voiced an opinion because I don’t breed jumpers & I am not that well-versed in the sport or what it takes horse-wise to be successful.
But regarding TBs in general? I earned my living on the racetrack during (what I consider) the last Golden Age of Racing – '73 - '84. i did everything from walking hots to a brief time as a trainer. The only thing I did not do was ride races.
I was privileged to work for trainers like Frank Whitely & Mac Miller (both HOF trainers) + some that probably wouldn’t be allowed in the parking lot of the HOF. And I learned from both.
I was able to see some of the finest race horses of that time in the flesh (we were stabled right next to Secretariat’s barn and I saw him many times) and I devoured each issue of BloodHorse.
I love the breed and think if they were selectively bred for sport, they MIGHT compete w/WBs. But they are not and not likely to be, because there is no reason to do so $$-wise.
And I have friends to routinely get their horses off the track – and the TB of today has even less chance of making a positive contribution to making top sport horses than they did back then.
The emphasis on precocious speed and stock that brings big $$ as yearlings has changed the focus of TB race breeding as well (IMHO the reason the Triple Crown has not been won since '83(?)–but that’s another thread).
The horses I’m seeing today do not compare overall with the TBs of 30-40 yrs ago, so my guess is that breeders in the US and probably in Europe would be hard pressed to find a TB worth breeding to in this regard.
But I realize I have very little experience with TBs compared to GAP, so I bow to her expertise.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8106879]
I hesitate to say this, but there was an example of a talented TB showing at FEI level - owned by a COTHer who has posted on this thread multiple times - and the only one who dismissed it as “good but not great” was … GAP.[/QUOTE]
Yeah… that was not a dismissal, and what I wrote was based on the OWNER’S assessment of him. I’ve never even seen him jump. What I also wrote is that I would not be completely surprised if her warmbloods do not reach or surpass the level of achievement that her TB has. Who knows. Maybe they will. Maybe they won’t. Horses that can jump like that are rare, even among purpose bred warmbloods.
But thanks for your contribution!
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8107036]
Yeah… that was not a dismissal, and what I wrote was based on the OWNER’S assessment of him. I’ve never even seen him jump.
But thanks for your contribution![/QUOTE]
GAP…do you possess the capability to comprehend that it’s you against the world here ? Have you bothered to read and comprehend all the responses to you. You have even managed to persuade TB lovers not to agree with you.
You had “some” support from Elles and Vineyridge but it appears they were even smart enough to see your writing on the wall.
Kytzeke, I’ve already told you, I have a biology degree. Do you know how all of the mice strains used to study diseases are created? Inbreeding. That’s right. Inbreeding is a great way to create disease models. Close inbreeding is risky because it concentrates ALL traits, and you can’t tell what’s there just by looking at a horse.
Close inbreeding sure hasn’t helped the Arabian breed in the US. :eek:
But go ahead and dis my real life experience.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8106384]
Yes, KWPN is a little like Holsteiner, but better, younger and sexier…[/QUOTE]
Hmmm…if you were to see our Holsteiner Horses , you wouldn’t say KWPN was better or sexier. They are younger though…I’ll give you that seeing as I’m pretty sure that’s not a good thing !
KWPN robs the genetics from other studbooks…we breed our own ! < grin >
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8106904]
Oh for Pete’s sake, how does I or anyone asking you to show us what you have done, “helping me”? You present yourself as an expert, expect people to want to see proof.
Quite the contrary, I am VERY interested in successful TBs, nowhere have I dismissed any successful horse, of any breed. I have said that, for the most part, the TB of today is a very different from the TB of yesterday.
I am very much “a good horse is a good horse”. My very best friend is heavily involved in the TB industry so I look at a lot of them. Just this morning I said to her that I wish I could find a couple of TB mares similar to a gelding she has, that I REALLY like. So, no, don’t try to make me out as anti TB, just because I asked to see some “proof” from you of your accomplishments riding TBs.[/QUOTE]
Funny, because you sure have come across as anti-TB on this thread.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8107057]
GAP…do you possess the capability to comprehend that it’s you against the world here ? Have you bothered to read and comprehend all the responses to you. You have even managed to persuade TB lovers not to agree with you.
You had “some” support from Elles and Vineyridge but it appears they were even smart enough to see your writing on the wall.[/QUOTE]
Actually Elles got tired of people like you and decided to take a break from posting on her usual subject.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8107061]
Kytzeke, I’ve already told you, I have a biology degree. Do you know how all of the mice strains used to study diseases are created? Inbreeding. That’s right. Inbreeding is a great way to create disease models. Close inbreeding is risky because it concentrates ALL traits, and you can’t tell what’s there just by looking at a horse.
Close inbreeding sure hasn’t helped the Arabian breed in the US. :eek:
But go ahead and dis my real life experience.[/QUOTE]
If you do in fact possess a biology degree , then surely you understand that your head needs to come out of your…well you know.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8107093]
If you do in fact possess a biology degree , then surely you understand that your head needs to come out of your…well you know.[/QUOTE]
Isn’t that more an issue of physics?
[QUOTE=Cumano;8107095]
Isn’t that more an issue of physics?[/QUOTE]
Could be…LOL ! But I think biology is applicable as well. Maybe I should have said that surely you understand your head doesn’t belong up your…well , you know.
Kytzeke, I’ve already told you, I have a biology degree.
Posted by GAP. I’ll see your biology degree and raise you a Ph.D in genetics. I have also bred 7 foals and from the above I know two things with certainty: 1) I am FAR from an expert in horse breeding and 2) For my future horses I will continue to seek out quality young bred by experienced BREEDERs. I will continue to ask for and listen to their knowlege. I do have a NICE mare and might, one day, consider breeding her; again with advice from those with actual knowlege and experience! GAP, I am trying to decide if your arrogance exceeds your ignorance or vice versa.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8107061]
Kytzeke, I’ve already told you, I have a biology degree. Do you know how all of the mice strains used to study diseases are created? Inbreeding. That’s right. Inbreeding is a great way to create disease models. Close inbreeding is risky because it concentrates ALL traits, and you can’t tell what’s there just by looking at a horse.
Close inbreeding sure hasn’t helped the Arabian breed in the US. :eek:
But go ahead and dis my real life experience.[/QUOTE]
That is common knowledge.
You seem to underestimate the intelligence of most people here, professional breeders or not, when you assume that they were never exposed to genetics 101. The breeders that I worked for “back in the day” were well aware of genetic principles. What you are saying is nothing new.
In expert hands there is much to be said for line breeding. Sure there are breeders who know nothing about what they are doing, but that will always catch up to them.
[QUOTE=skydy;8107270]
That is common knowledge.
You seem to underestimate the intelligence of most people here, professional breeders or not, when you assume that they were never exposed to genetics 101. The breeders that I worked for “back in the day” were well aware of genetic principles. What you are saying is nothing new.
In expert hands there is much to be said for line breeding. Sure there are breeders who know nothing about what they are doing, but that will always catch up to them.[/QUOTE]
And it is also interesting to know that Leon Melchior, a pioneer of linebreeding in horses with his Zangershaide Stud, employed full time Vets and geneticists to manage his breeding program.
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