New decision in Holstein

Denny Emerson pretty much agreed with that study.

"People ask, “So, lets say Im looking at a horse at some place where I cant see him jump. What conformational traits should I look for that will determine whether hell make a good jumper?”
Excellent question! So glad you asked this! For fifty years Ive studied this, just to be able to answer this very question! YES! Are you ready??? I dont have a damned clue. Not one. Ive seen horses so gorgeous that you want to fall to the ground and writhe in ecstasy that cant jump a stick, and some ugly, badly made little runts that could punch a hole in the sky.
So, please, when you figure it out, let me know??

Courage. Boldness. Guts. Heart.
Why will some horses march right down and fire their bodies into the scary unknown, while another will get there and say, “Thanks, but no thanks”?

If you can tell this by looking at them, you must be a billionaire by now, because I dont personally know anyone who can really tell what a horse will do until you get him to that place where its yes or no.
“Does this horse have what it takes to go advanced, Denny?”
“Darned if I know, but I`ll tell you after you get him there.”

Even the most experienced, most knowledgeable horse dealers in the world, those like Bernie Traurig and David Hopper (above), who have bought and sold THOUSANDS of horses, theyll tell you theyve been wrong, missed some, made mistakes, bought some they wished they hadnt, turned down others they wish theyd bought—
Anybody who claims otherwise, anyone who says what an infallible eye they have, they are bullslingers. Avoid those people like the bubonic plague."

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8052884]
Denny Emerson pretty much agreed with that study.[/QUOTE]

Only as it pertains to conformation.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8052907]
Only as it pertains to conformation.[/QUOTE]

Not really. The study showed a small positive correlation of competitive success with gaits and free jumping, and Denny obviously considers both of those things when he’s looking at a prospect.

After all, you quoted this part of the article:

"It`s a huge mystery to me how anybody who sells horses can exist without access to some way to free jump the greenies.

Heres the thing—you can get an idea of both scope and form much sooner than if you have to get them rideable over fences first, before you can test them, and how long you keep them, and [B] what they are worth, is partly determined by what you see or dont see in terms of innate talent.[/B] bolding mine

He didn’t say completely determined, he said partly.

Denny didn’t say anyone who buys horses, he said “anyone who sells horses” and he didn’t say prospects, he said greenies. It looks to me as if he were talking about horses that are already owned. To people of my era, IIRC, young horses learned to jump over free jumps first, raising the fences as you go, and then moved on to jumping under saddle.

I think it’s self evident that you can see a horse’s innate jumping talent from free jumping, but that and jumping with a rider are two very different things. Which seems to be a statement that is justified by the French study.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8053213]
Denny didn’t say anyone who buys horses, he said “anyone who sells horses” and he didn’t say prospects, he said greenies. It looks to me as if he were talking about horses that are already owned. To people of my era, IIRC, young horses learned to jump over free jumps first, raising the fences as you go, and then moved on to jumping under saddle.

I think it’s self evident that you can see a horse’s innate jumping talent from free jumping, but that and jumping with a rider are two very different things. Which seems to be a statement that is justified by the French study.[/QUOTE]

And your point is?

Greenies are prospects.

To me a greenie is a horse who is in the first stages of a training and showing program for a particular discipline. A prospect is one who may or may not have started training for that discipline but hasn’t started showing yet. There is a big difference between a hunter prospect and a green hunter.

Again, the participation percentage is often not very high in Europe:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/03/the-new-dutch-breeding-values/
Also the studbook looks at the parents (performance) of each horse and with a TB parent that is a problem with regard to breeding values. Not all horses that are high in the ranking were absolute top performers. Breeders maybe also look at the parents of the particular stallion and also his offspring

A very good Dutch mare, Herarda:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/3090
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/3090
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/26927

With horses nothing is ever clear cut.

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/27995
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/19279
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/117290
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/30561
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/14262
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1504134
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/28070
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/589885
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/42185
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/3437
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/progeny/139270
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/progeny/137985
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/1222
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/15248
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/255
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/15247
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/progeny/3737
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/71203
http://www.horsetelex.de/horses/progeny/11248
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1477
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/32940
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/3275
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/5137
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/5799
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/4391
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/171

Is there anything one can say with 100% certainty with regard to the above?

But to find out about that, one needs the stallion and/or his offspring to have a very dertermined owner who makes sure to hire the best rider and an owner who has lots of cash and lots of faith in the horse. There is only a very small portion of all stallions that get so much faith, determination, good riding and money spent on himself and his offspring. And the best owners / riders will turn to where the other best owners / riders put their faith in, most of the time. It is like a snowball. The more expensive the stallion and his offspring get, the more the more serious (professional) breeders / owners / riders will flock to the stallion and / or his offspring. And therefore the stallion gets more good offspring because he gets the better mares as well.

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8052505]
THIS ^^^^ . This is why we don’t use TB stallions and this is why we dont use a lot of WB stallions just the same.

If you are trying to breed top sporthorses you should never use a stallion that hasn’t done it himself or has shown the ability to sire it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8053136]
Not really. The study showed a small positive correlation of competitive success with gaits and free jumping, and Denny obviously considers both of those things when he’s looking at a prospect.[/QUOTE]

You’re making an assumption that overrides the express caveat in his comments:

"People ask, “So, lets say Im looking at a horse at some place [U]where I cant see him jump[/U]. What [U]conformational[/U] traits should I look for that will determine whether hell make a good jumper?”

So in context, Denny says “I can’t tell from conformation whether the horse will be successful.” So he agrees with that part of the study which concludes that conformation is unrelated to competition success.

Of course, and therein lies the flaw of the study.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8053213]
I think it’s self evident that you can see a horse’s innate jumping talent from free jumping, but that and jumping with a rider are two very different things. Which seems to be a statement that is justified by the French study.[/QUOTE]

Which is why the French study is flawed. They did not isolate the test variables from the very significant external impact of a rider - for good or bad. The fact that any positive correlation exists in the results suggests to me a much more significant impact than the conclusions perceived by the authors of the study.

How focused on the gallop are warmblood breeders when choosing a stallion?

It seems to me that it’s the gallop that makes breeding to any thoroughbred much riskier when breeding for stadium jumping.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8053433]
You’re making an assumption that overrides the express caveat in his comments:

So in context, Denny says “I can’t tell from conformation whether the horse will be successful.” So he agrees with that part of the study which concludes that conformation is unrelated to competition success.

Of course, and therein lies the flaw of the study.[/QUOTE]

I’m not making any assumptions, I quoted him directly. :lol:

He said “partly” because free jumping doesn’t demonstrate everything: not a horse’s rideability, durability, or ability to navigate courses cleanly over and over again.

The rider is another very important variable altogether.

http://www.kwpn.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Engels-volbloed.pdf
Toen de omvorming van het landbouwpaard naar het rijpaard plaats vond, kon er door het gebruik van Engels volbloed grote stappen worden gemaakt. Dat zag je terug in het hele paard. Naast de innerlijke kwaliteit die een volbloed mee kan geven, kreeg ook het exterieur een moderniseringslag. Tegenwoordig kennen we het moderne sportpaard, dat uiterlijk gezien qua uitstraling en bouw in
veel gevallen al bloed toont. Dat betekent echter niet dat we zonder volbloed kunnen. “Het gebruik van Engels volbloed blijft belangrijk in onze moderne fokkerij. De rastypische eigenschappen die in de goede Engels volbloeds verankerd zijn, hebben we nog altijd hard nodig. Veel van de kwaliteiten die
een volbloed meegeeft, zie je niet direct terug in het fokproduct, maar zitten ‘onder het vel’. Denk daarbij aan uithoudingsvermogen, hardheid en instelling. Die eigenschappen kunnen bijdragen tot het produceren van paarden die gemakkelijker, slimmer en duurzamer de gevraagde sportprestaties zullen leveren.
Dat geldt voor zowel het spring- als dressuurpaard. Voor beide disciplines heb je instelling en hardheid nodig. Bij het springen zijn zaken als galoppade, uithoudingsvermogen, schakelvermogen en reactievermogen belangrijke kwaliteiten die mede van een volbloed af kunnen komen. Bij de dressuur kan je daarbij denken aan de wil tot werken, meer ras en uitstraling en een lichtvoetige bewegingsvorm”, stelt KWPN inspecteur Wim Versteeg.

Translation:
When the transformation of the agricultural horse to riding horse took place, could great strides be made by the use of English Thoroughbred. That you saw back in the whole horse. In addition to the inner quality that a thoroughbred can give, the horse also got a modernisering improvement to the exterior. Nowadays we have the modern sport horse, which outwardly speaking in terms of appearance and construction in many cases already shows blood. That does not mean, however, that one can do without Thoroughbred. "The use of English Thoroughbred continues to be important in our modern breeding. The typical properties that are existent in the right English Thoroughbreds, we still desperately need. We are thinking of stamina, soundness and good attitude. Those features may contribute to producing horses that are easier, smarter and more sustainable at delivering the requested sport performance.
This applies to both the jumping and dressage horse. For both disciplines drive and soundness are required. When jumping things like canter, stamina, switching capacity (changing gear?) and responsiveness are important qualities that can come from a thoroughbred. At the dressage one can think of the will to work, more nobility and appearance and a light-footed movement form ", says KWPN inspector Wim Versteeg.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8053352]
To me a greenie is a horse who is in the first stages of a training and showing program for a particular discipline. A prospect is one who may or may not have started training for that discipline but hasn’t started showing yet. There is a big difference between a hunter prospect and a green hunter.[/QUOTE]

A horse can be considered green or a prospect at any level. I have repeatedly heard riders refer to horses as green at 4 star or GP level when they were new at it.

SEPowell, I am a breeder of show jumpers, and I believe in breeding specialists in every discipline. Canter to me is of prime importance because, of course, courses are jumped from canter. I want to see power, strong push from behind, a long enough stride, but also supplenes. A long stride is an assets to cover the distance, but supplness is a must as today’s course requires a lot of rapid adjustments of speed and lenght of strides. Also, I want to see a lot of action from behind, with hind legs coming well under the horse, as it is those hind legs that will have to push the horse at take off. Canter is also, to me, the gait that will reveils the most about a horses power. I like to see a lot of expression of power in the canter. The walk strangely enough seems to show a lot about the horses ability over jump, but don’t ask me why. Many great breeders and judges I had the opportunity to discuss with insisted on the importance of a good, well balanced, souple walk, with a lot of action behind. Since I started noticing, I noticed that a very good walk will often translate into the canter and the jumping. I could not notice the same corelation at the trot. Of course, a big impressive trot makes a horse more noticeable when you show it to a buyer, and often makes a very fun ride, but I still pay less attention to it. However, many people who breed for a more “all rounder” type of horse will say, and they are not wrong, that a horse needs a good trot if you want it to be suitable to the dressage or eventing market. If the horse is not a good jumper, but has three good gaits, he may still make an honnest dressage horse.

What kind of TBs are we talking about here? The ones used in Hanover were largely English TBs, weren’t they?

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8053774]
What kind of TBs are we talking about here? The ones used in Hanover were largely English TBs, weren’t they?[/QUOTE]

That’s been hashed over on this thread many times, with regards to bloodlines, etc. There are numerous horses and bloodlines that have resulted in top jumpers.

Many of the top TB GP jumpers were off the track American TBs. Some were purpose bred like Gem Twist though, whose sire also competed in the Olympics.

Thoroughbreds that have been approved by warmblood studbooks. Those can in fact have come from anywhere, most are a mix of German and/or English and/or American and/or French.