The gallop is a four beat and the canter is a three beat so I can see how, as in the trot vs the canter, the same horse might not have “both” in the quality you want. I suspect it might be more do-able to improve/develop a canter than improve/develop a gallop. I wonder whether the gallop is more like the walk – you either got it or dont? (All important for eventing to be able to gallop for sure.)
Who are some of the American TBs that have been used to improve WBs in Europe?
I can think of several who are/were used in the North America WB books, but can think of none who stood in Europe.
I’m just curious and have no dog in this fight.
Quite a few in Sweden. Right off the top of my head, Stupendous and Big Shuffle were exported to Germany and have descendants in German and Eastern European WB breeding. Lots of US stallions have been exported and their blood eventually ends up in WBs. Lyphard, Relic, Sadlers Wells to name just three of many.
That’s true. A horse is a prospect before it starts doing something; it’s green after it’s started.
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8054022]
Who are some of the American TBs that have been used to improve WBs in Europe?
I can think of several who are/were used in the North America WB books, but can think of none who stood in Europe.
I’m just curious and have no dog in this fight.[/QUOTE]
Right off the top of my head I can think of a stallion imported from South America to the US and then to Holland when he was 13. He was sired by the American horse Lefty. Stellar looking horse. Google Roven xx stallion.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/roven
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/6916 if you click on the film icon you can get his inspection scores, which were very good.
He sired at least a couple of 1.6 m jumpers, several 1.4m jumpers, and at least one GP dressage horse. He was a beautiful mover, beautiful jumper, very athletic, and a beautiful horse.
The vast majority, to a diminishing point, are European bred. The American breds have usually been exported for race breeding and their sons have made it into warmblood breeding. I can only think of Hand In Glove and Roven who were directly exported for WB breeding. And French Buffet was exported from Chile by way of the US. But I honestly don’t know if he was exported originally for WB breeding. Mytens was a US bred who ended up in the Netherlands.
Clayton Fredericks has an imported stallion from Brazil named Mr. Big Cat. But that’s event horse breeding.
Some info about Mytens: http://www.bennyderuiterstables.com/horses_for_sale/warmbloods/stallion/jumper/benz/98/pedigree/vvvvm
I remember when his sire Spectacular Bid had an advertisement in COTH magazine for a reasonable stud fee late in his life (3500 maybe).
Interesting. We’ve been lucky to have some greats on this side of the pond I can think of:
AFR (sadly retired, but with a couple of young stallion prospects out there)
Coconut Grove (sadly now dec.)
Sea Accounts
Is Salute the Truth? If not, he should be.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8048292]
When a top WB mare is taken to a TB stallion…you will witness what is lost in the foal if you can be honest with yourselves. This is why it is extremely difficult for a breeder to take one of his/her good mares to a TB stallion. You often don’t realize what is gained (if anything) until the next generation or two or three later.
It’s too much of a risk right now…hence the comment of “let the neighbor do it”.
The world wide warmblood population is a wonderful hybrid at the moment and you can get hybrid vigor by other means than a TB Stallion and not lose near as much , or anything at all.
An example would be the French…in the last few years they have bought or leased some of the best Holsteiner Stallions to put on their French motherlines. Canturo , Carthago , Cassini II , Corofino , Contendro , Montender ,Carinjo etc.
I would predict these foals will be a force to be reckoned with in the future.[/QUOTE]
This helps me understand the bigger picture when breeding warmbloods.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8053523]
SEPowell, I am a breeder of show jumpers, and I believe in breeding specialists in every discipline. Canter to me is of prime importance because, of course, courses are jumped from canter. I want to see power, strong push from behind, a long enough stride, but also supplenes. A long stride is an assets to cover the distance, but supplness is a must as today’s course requires a lot of rapid adjustments of speed and lenght of strides. Also, I want to see a lot of action from behind, with hind legs coming well under the horse, as it is those hind legs that will have to push the horse at take off. Canter is also, to me, the gait that will reveils the most about a horses power. I like to see a lot of expression of power in the canter. The walk strangely enough seems to show a lot about the horses ability over jump, but don’t ask me why. Many great breeders and judges I had the opportunity to discuss with insisted on the importance of a good, well balanced, souple walk, with a lot of action behind. Since I started noticing, I noticed that a very good walk will often translate into the canter and the jumping. I could not notice the same corelation at the trot. Of course, a big impressive trot makes a horse more noticeable when you show it to a buyer, and often makes a very fun ride, but I still pay less attention to it. However, many people who breed for a more “all rounder” type of horse will say, and they are not wrong, that a horse needs a good trot if you want it to be suitable to the dressage or eventing market. If the horse is not a good jumper, but has three good gaits, he may still make an honnest dressage horse.[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
So, for breeding warmbloods the canter you want is all about power. When you say expression of power, how exactly would you describe that “expression”?
Also, I was interested in what you had to say about the walk as an indication of what the horse will do over jumps. With thoroughbreds, many people use the walk to get an idea of the horse’s gallop. In fact, at thoroughbred studs they will not jog the stallions for you, rather, they expect you to draw your conclusions about the horse’s movement from the walk. Of course, you probably already know this.
[QUOTE=SEPowell;8054735]
This helps me understand the bigger picture when breeding warmbloods.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. You also have to remember…back in the hayday when they were using Ladykiller xx , Cottage Son xx , Furioso xx , Marlon xx Laudanum xx etc. , it’s because they had to. They were still trying to refine…That day is over for now.
[QUOTE=SEPowell;8054753]
Thank you.
So, for breeding warmbloods the canter you want is all about power. When you say expression of power, how exactly would you describe that “expression”?
Also, I was interested in what you had to say about the walk as an indication of what the horse will do over jumps. With thoroughbreds, many people use the walk to get an idea of the horse’s gallop. In fact, at thoroughbred studs they will not jog the stallions for you, rather, they expect you to draw your conclusions about the horse’s movement from the walk. Of course, you probably already know this.[/QUOTE]
If the horse is not walking the horse is not jumping…generally. The walk is just as important for evaluation as the canter.
Was cavalier Royale ever approved in Holstein. His amazing success was with the Irish mare base; did his dams other offspring ever approach CRs exceptional production; no. look at the mares that Contender crossed best with. Blood is needed, but it can`t be added with blind fanaticism
If I had an amazing TB mare, I would cross her with an amazing TB sire
There is one that I can easily name without having to search and that is Man in the Moon xx. He was bred by Paul Mellon. The KWPN gave him a licence to breed KWPN mares but after two years they took away the licence. The KWPN examined his foals and were not totally satisfied with the foals.
These people especially still appreciate the blood of Man in the Moon xx:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/sponsors/profile/96
http://www.stalwolfswinkel.com/fokmerries.html
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8054022]
Who are some of the American TBs that have been used to improve WBs in Europe?
I can think of several who are/were used in the North America WB books, but can think of none who stood in Europe.
I’m just curious and have no dog in this fight.[/QUOTE]
Of course there is also Sit This One Out xx. He died but his frozen semen still seems to be available.
http://www.staldepluum.nl/paarden/sit-this-one-out-xx/
http://www.olivierphilippaerts.be/en/show_jumpers/detail/olivier_philippaerts/20070078
https://www.google.nl/search?q="sit+this+one+out+xx"&hl=nl&rlz=1T4MERD_nlNL503NL503&biw=1600&bih=698&tbm=vid&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=ieUDVf_RA8XaOLzugKgF&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&dpr=1
These people bred a mare to Hopalong Cassidy xx: http://www.inislot.nl/breeding--engels.html
I think Hopalong Cassidy xx has an American sire.
And, of course, Last News in Ireland, who is not approved by the ISH as far as I know. He wasapproved AES, but now is listed as archived. One of his foals has run 4* and the European championships, and another represented Ireland at Lanaken. Irish horses are not exactly WBs though.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8054775]
Thank you. You also have to remember…back in the hayday when they were using Ladykiller xx , Cottage Son xx , Furioso xx , Marlon xx Laudanum xx.[/QUOTE]
Question from a non breeder (excluding my mare who the breeder bred 4 times), when you use xx after the sire, are you referring to the mare daughters? Would that be the mare line prodnigy or is there another term?
I’m trying to learn.
Thanks.
[QUOTE=Katis;8054867]
If I had an amazing TB mare, I would cross her with an amazing TB sire[/QUOTE]
That could be an excellent strategy.
People are always talking about what warmbloods lose when crossed with TBs. The foal can lose some of the good traits of the TB when a TB is crossed with a warmblood as well. You can lose some of the endurance, soundness, willingness, and heart.
Warmblood/ TB hybrids aren’t as they were back in the 40s and 50s though, since there is so much TB in the warmbloods now. The types are much more similar.
If you cross to a TB that can jump 1.6m courses (and they are out there), there’s no reason to lose anything, no more so than any other cross.
