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Novice needs advices on naughty horse (We have a baby!)

Off Course
#881

Yes, we shall consider that with my vet, no shadow about that, but first is deworming and filling him up to safe condition - as I said, season here is over and no mares will be bothered by him this autumn so I do have time to get him in better shape for the final cut. Or - enough time to find him a safe home to keep him intact (IF it will be worth doing it, I do not know yet).

I do need a stallion at my home like a hole in my head but he can not be done before we shall move him here.

I have plenty of space to keep them way apart, and gradually introduce him to Puika as a buddy, but currently we have a problem - he had never been in an electric fencing so Peter now is building wooden fence specially for him with white electric tape inside to get him used to white tape. In his current home he is in very symbolic fencing - hardly 2 ft high single wire without anything and he respects it, but it might and probably will change when mares will be near by.

#882

[QUOTE=ChocoMare;4256125]
Anna dear. You’ve taken on a lot and done very well. However, stallion ownership is not something I would recommend. :no:

Your fencing will have to be impenetrable and HOT. He will have to be pastured well away from the mares and only with Puika. Your mares will also go nuts when they’re in season and do what they can to get to him.

So, if you do decide to bring him home, have the vet there the same day to geld him. A nice stallion makes a fantastic gelding. :cool:[/QUOTE]

I’ll have to agree with this. There is a saying of “You can’t save them all…” and unfortunately as much as you, or I, or anyone else on here wants to see horses all end up in good homes, there are some that you just have to let go and move on from.

#883

Wow, I am so impressed with Guido’s loading into the trailer so easily. I really think this horse was misunderstood and has responded wonderfully to the care from you and Peter.
Now the stallion… I wouldn’t want a stallion myself, but if anyone can make it work, it will be you and Peter.

#884

Anna and Peter, I hope everything goes well with your latest addition. His eyes look very sad. Has anyone else noticed how down his hind ankles are? Could he even mount a mare with hind legs in this condition? You have been making very good decisions with all your horses so far so I trust your judgment, but I wanted to add my voice to those who say the kindest thing to do is probably to geld him and give him a happy retirement. :slight_smile:

#885

Anna- pleae be careful if you choose to bring a stallion into the mix. Just because Puika doesn’t have the parts doesn’t mean he doesn’t have feelings about another male on the property. unless you know he has already been out with one unless you have apregnant mare to turn him out with. Stallions even though they can be nice require a different type of handling in most cases…All I am saying is be careful and you cannot save them all. I wish I could just save one more…
My horse lost his parts at the age of four but he still thinks he has them and he and another gelding got into a big scrape of some mares over the fence!

#886

He doesn’t look right in the rear end.

#887

I finally took a look at the pix and I agree that the fetlocks look dropped, especially the right hind.
Possibly DSLD? http://www.horseshoes.com/anatomy/esad/information/dsld/dsld.htm
Definitely not sound in the video. I would make sure this is not a genetic problem that could be passed on if is to be bred in the future.

#888

We had planned our setup like this:
paddock #1 - the stallion; paddock #2 - Puika, paddock #3 - Giva, Guddy, Inka; paddock #4 - Shella, baby and yearling. All paddocks have one border joint with other paddock. Thus stallion will be away from mares but will have Puika over the fence on one side, Puika will have company both sides and will not feel lost, and next two will feel comfortable as well.

I had been told that stallion had been good with geldings as buddies all his life, and at his present home he also had a buddy - gelding.

About his legs… So far it seems that it is a result of not seeing farrier for a long time +old injury, nothing else, but vet wants be sure - so after farrier will finish with the trimming (and it will take not one session due to the current condition) the ultrasound will be done to see what’s going on. But none of his offsprings or siblings from his lines had been showing any inherited illnesses like DSLD or so. So we shall know for sure about next spring or around New Year.

I talked with org what holds the studbook and they actually are keen to keep his blood, so he probably will get his stallion certificate again for next season. His babies are known for rideability, elastic body, good, light gaits and talented showjumpers with very high working ethics. Oldest ones are 10-12 yo now, and no one is showing any inherited illnesses.

But before I will consider about breeding any of my mares with him (if the vet check will be OK for things like DSLD and similar), I want to see his full list of babies and talk with their owners. Org promised to provide my with the full list on Monday. By myself I had found owners of 2 boys and one mare. So far news are very good about his babies.

But all these things have secondary importance. My present concern is to bring him home, set up safely for all of us, and then get him back in shape as much as it will be possible.

#889

As always, Anna, you are a very conscientious, dedicated horse owner/breeder. I never have any doubts you will do the right thing with your horse care and breeding. Whether he is breeding sound or not, he needs better care and maybe you can bring happiness back to his sad eye.

#890

If the stallion turns out to be a problem for handling and with the mares or Puika, you might want to think about freezing some the stallion’s semen and gelding him. Then his bloodline can continue and you’d have a horse that would be easier to handle.

#891

Let’s see how it will go. We shall bring him home probably on Wednesday so you can keep fingers crossed for us.

Currently girl is leading him around without any stallion chain, just in normal halter. But I will prepare one with the chain just in case. He will get the far end box with 2 empty boxes both sides of the aisle and then will go Puika. If they will go on well, Puika will be moved in the next box to him.

I’m a bit concerned about my yearling Sapphire. She is 13+ months old, and so far had not started her circle.

Can I hope that her season will start next spring along with other mares or must be ready for peculiar autumn season like it can happen with young bitches?

#892

Wow Anna, congratulations!

Poor boy, I can see why you want to help him - and I think your field arrangement sounds pretty good. You’re right to be worried about your younger horses coming into season. With maiden mares (mare’s that haven’t had a foal) it can be very, very hard to see they are in season, there are sometimes no outwardly visible signs at all. If your older mares are not coming in season any more this year then you may be OK.

What everyone one means about his back leg is that if you look (particularly at photo 7) is that his right hind fetlock is so close to the ground. If you look at your other horses, or even at this guy’s other back leg, the pastern should be about 45 degrees. Do you see in photo 8 how when he has all his weight on the other foot, the fetlock does not drop so far down to the ground?

It is true that the shoeing is poor. You can see that on the left hind (back to photo 7), the pastern angle is correct but the line does not continue down nicely at the same angle through the hoof, instead the hoof goes down at a much straighter angle. For comparison, his front feet are actually pretty correct looking in that the line of the pastern continues through the hoof.

Back to the right hind… It may be a problem in the fetlock, or the tendon’s that run down the leg that has caused the fetlock to drop. Normally this is caused by a very severe tendon injury and is normally seen on a front leg where the back leg shoe has literally severed the tendons down the back of the front leg.

The other scenario is that it is a problem with the hock. Can you see how straight it is compared to the other leg - or to your other horses?

Now, I don’t want you to think that I’m trying to say you shouldn’t have him - he does need help and you might be able to provide it for him, but, I think you need to expect that he might never be sound enough to ride. You sometimes see very elderly dogs like this don’t you? it doesn’t necessarily mean they are in pain, but it does generally mean they aren’t going to get any better. You know when you see a very old dog when their back legs start to curve, they start to tuck their tail and the angles of the back leg look not quite right? Have a look at photo seven in that context, can you see that same look?

It doesn’t necessarily mean he is unsuitable for breeding either - especially if this was caused by a major tendon injury - that’s not a conformational defect, but if the vet can’t explain it, I’d be cautious about breeding.

I would get him to you as soon as you can and get as much good grass in him as you can. I think your winters are quite hard compared to England (almost definitely as my mare continues in season, despite living out all year, right up til October) and you may need to make a decision before winter gets to hard whether he can recover enough to get through the winter as he probably won’t be able to share the warmth of the barn with all the girls.

Do what you can for him, I’m sure you will, and I’m sure he’ll be a much happier boy with your care and attention. good luck - and keep us all updated, I look forward to seeing pictures of a much happier horse soon!

#893

Thank you for explanations, it helped me a lot as legs are still quite a mystery to me (I must learn so much, it is just not enough time to learn it all as soon as I need it to learn, but I am learning, I am).

So far I only know for sure that he needs farrier ASAP. And then deworming and teeth checked (He is missing 2 front teeth already after the kick when he was 2 yo). And then we shall put his rehab program together. It will take a long time to get his hoofs back in the right shape and angles, and even more to get his fetlocks rehab to the normal conditions. (For Puika it took over 12 months to get his back right leg in the best possible condition) But it is even clear for me that this boy will never jump high again and will be suitable only for some mild, easy riding.

About wintertime. Yes, our winters are harsh in comparison with UK, but I can not see any problems why he can not make it here.

First, his previous owner had told me that he had lived with other horses without any problems. In my trainer’s stable 2 stallions are living and they do live together with all the girls in the same wing, and are handled by children (and they are not so calm as this boy actually, one is Quick Star’s son and a real handful).

This old boy had been lived with mares around in his younger days and had been trained to behave in the right way - I do not have any info that he has issues in this field. His previous owner (years ago) is experienced horse person and would not tell lies about his good behavior around mares.

Actually it is ME who is jumping in an unknown waters and is worried about not having experience with a stallion.

We shall put him in the far end box, and the only thing to make things easier will be to take him out last and put him in first so he doesn’t need walk past other horses - mares or geldings. It is our plan so far.

The second - we are quite lucky having a huge barn. It is T shape, and once I had measured it and counted - there is space for at least 80 horses (it does not mean that I am planning to end up with 80 :D) so if it will not work, I can move him to separate wing with just one gelding, Guido or Puika for company without any troubles. So far I’m using only one wing out of three, so enough space to keep somebody in quarantine or just separate like stallion. I even have there some empty rooms with brick walls so if he will be really restless, he will safely be kept in one of these.

About breeding - see, here we have quite strong rules - it is not for me to decide is he suitable for breeding as a stallion or not. The org who is holding studbook and issues certificates for stallions decides. It is based on stallions confirmation (which is terrible at present moment) and/or on his offsprings.

This stallion had certificate ten years ago, and had quite high marks for his confirmation then. Now… As this stallion has now over 10 foals who are grownups, it is easy for org to decide is he worth breeding or not. They judge confirmation of his foals, inherited problems, temperament/character, rideability and achievements and then say their final yes or no.

Of course, it is still a free country and you can breed with a stallion who has no certificate, but actually I do not know any case of such practice here, except real accidents (like youngsters break out and do the deed by themselves). Without certificate you can not get full pedigree of the horse, and who would buy a horse without proper papers? Nobody wants to take such horses here.

If stallion has certificate, it is up to me to decide do I want use him for any of my mares or not, but at present it is not even a question. I’m trying to put all this paper-shuffling thing into my head right so there still be some gaps in my knowledge at present moment.

I’m so sorry, I know my thoughts and ideas might be really annoying probably for many of you, but I better will ask and ask again so I can learn quicker - at current economic situation it allows me save at least some of hopeless ones. It is not much, but at least it is something.

#894

[QUOTE=AnnaCrew;4261633]
Thank you for explanations, it helped me a lot as legs are still quite a mystery to me (I must learn so much, it is just not enough time to learn it all as soon as I need it to learn, but I am learning, I am). [/QUOTE]

Anna, you are learning sooo much - and remember there isn’t a single person on this bb who knows all that there is to know. It’s easy to feel that you don’t know as much as you could/should - we all do that, you just need to keep learning what you can, when you can - you’ll never stop - that’s what makes horse keeping addictive.

That’s great, it sounds like you won’t have any problems. There are many stallions that do live easily with other horses, just not so much in the UK and USA where we tend to keep them very separate.

My apologies, I obviously hugely underestimated the size of your barn :eek::eek::eek:- that’s amazing!! I think I might bring my horses and dogs and move in just to see how long it would take for you to notice :lol:

That sounds a great system - I wish we had similar in the UK

:confused:
:no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

noooooooo, I never meant for my post to sound annoyed with you. no, no, no, no, nooooo… I just felt some of the previous posts said he ‘looked wrong’ and didn’t really try and explain why. I don’t think you shouldn’t get him, I think it’s wonderful that you are. I just wanted to be sure you were aware he might not stand up to being ridden again and that you could see what the other posts were referring to (or at least my interpretation of what the others were seeing). Obviously, I also thought you might run into some logistical problems in winter - but a barn big enough for eighty horses??? I was very, very wrong!!:o

You’re amazing Anna (and Peter). Your horses are extremely lucky.

#895

Doodlebug, you are very welcome :slight_smile: You will like here.

Oh, and thank you! Do not worry, I can take a lot! :wink: Actually I really appreciate if you are honest with me and say “you are an idiot! Because…”. It is why am here - to learn, not to hear polite “oh, how sweet”, “how nice” or something like that with giggles at the background. If I need bash on my head, please, feel free, I will take it.

I am capable to admit that I’m an idiot in general, and it makes me very nervous - at nights I wake up in cold sweat thinking about horses - are they happy, are we doing everything right, counting empty boxes and trying put the winter expenses in my head together… Can we or we can’t… What needs to be done with baby next, what - with yearling, is Puika having enough exercises, maybe we are working to much and too fast with Giva… (she jumps 1.05 cm now with pleasure, not bad after less than 2 months of training with novice trainer - peter is doing training by himself only). And so on and on and on…

I wish I had smallest clues in my previous life and already had learned something about horses. Now I feel like I must pass exam every day, only instead of a good mark that I must get, it is life of a horse. If I fail, you know… :frowning:

3 years ago horse for me was just 4 legged gazing animal in somebody’s field when we drove past. Then it suddenly happened and the whole life changed. I’m still not sure was it right decision or not that day when we said “yes, we shall try” with Puika. I had so nice and paceful life before all this horsey thing started in my life. :smiley:

You know, I like mocking stables and carry buckets of water, grow pumpkins or pick up herbs for teas in fields to keep them healthy during the winter, but… From other side - since we have horses, I had not had time to write a single word (except this thread and few others, but you can not call it writer’s career :D).

For example, today Peter is dashing between fencing jobs since 5 am and riding Giva and Guido just now (it is nearly 6 PM here now, they must be exercised on daily basic, right?).

I had mocked stables all morning, then tidied up the other half of the one isle where the new boxes must be built, cleared out all last year’s hay that was stored there to get ready for welding jobs probably tomorrow (and I do have a broken finger which is not healing well), and now I will go to demolish some old concrete troughs which are left in our stable (it was a pig farm). They are no good for horses being danger for their legs, so they must be taken out, only big hammer and heavy concrete are not my favorite toys at present (finger, urgghh) but must be done ASAP if new horse is coming in. (His box will be in the far end so he will be walking pass these troughs).

We had friends from Paris, France visiting here past week - and ques what? We asked them to help with making jumps and cooking :smiley: Good job that they are good friends and were ready to help in full…

It is just too many jobs that just need to be done, all at once, and my life had been completely changed. It sometimes feel like we are chasing our tails, running like mad to get ready for winter. At the same time - there is no way to slow down as economy sucks, people are loosing their jobs, can not afford horses and so many need a place to stay alive. I know it is impossible to save them all but I just hate when innocent animals must pay for human mistakes. It is not horses fault this economy downhill, isn’t it?

#896

I am in awe of what you undertake… I wish you the best with the new boy. I am sure he will be happy with you and you are asking questions BEFORE he gets to you. That’s good!!

And Anna, happy name day!! It is mine also!! and I almost forgot about it! living in Canada where we do not celebrate name days will do that to you. So, happy name days to all the Annas and Ann(e)s around!!

Anne

#897

Please give us lots of pictures of the stallion when he settles into your farm. I hope his sadness will disappear with your magical care.
I think that people here are somewhat afraid of stallions, but I went to Portugal and rode at a riding school and all the school horses were Lusitano stallions who lived quite nicely together.

#898

outofthebox, see, I’m afraid as well. In general of horses and stallions in particular. It is just me. Still.

Stallions that I had met so far all were human friendly sweeties. When I went to that Trakenher stud farm few weeks ago, we went into boxes of all their breeding stallions, and all of them were sweeties toward us (and if they would not be safe, nobody would invite 5 strangers in their boxes, right?).

At our trainers there are two - one is DW (nice and calm), other is Quick Star son, hottie with a lot of crazy moments when ridden (due to the serious abuse in past), but as a stallion he is OK around mares. We were there when one mare was in for a live cover - one teen girl was holding mare (girl inside box, mare outside box, for safety, so stallion’s legs can not hit the person who holds mare), other teen girl led stallion to mare on long lunging lead and all other school children were around standing about 4-5 meters away from mare. As these stallions are busy during the season, it is routinely job there and all 12-15 yo girls know it all and can handle them.

My vet’s stallion I know the best - she lets children ride him, he loves kisses and hugs and would hang all day around humans. Between him and vet’s mares is just one hot wire about 80 cm high from ground, and he does not try to cross it even when vet’s mares are on heat. He gets hot when new, not “his” mare arrives as he knows that it will be job for him then, but with his home mares he knows that no way and respects it. (my vet has him for 3 years now and so far she had only one accident when he broke out).

So actually stallion is not so impossible to handle BUT… I just do not know when to expect nice calm horse turning his hormones ON. Which behavior is acceptable and which must be stopped instantly and things like that - it makes me nervous.

I think I had learned now how to “read” our horses but this new boy will bring in new things and can change the behavior of the whole herd.

My other concern is Sapphire - she had not started circling yet (she is 13+ months old), growing like weed and I worry just in case she will start unpredictable season this autumn.

Other mares hopefully will be OK. Shella is on heat now but she is at vet’s to the same stallion so hopefully next year we shall have full sister or brother to Sonora II. Shella hopefully will return on Wednesday or Thursday when she circle is over.

One more mare might arrive this coming weekend, but she is 20 yo, and definitely finished her season for this year.

If the trailer will be ok, Guido will go back to trainer again today or tomorrow at least for a month, maybe even more, so the only boy at home will be Puika.

OH, this horse logistics drives my nuts :smiley:

But seriously - if you have any tips from your experience on stallion’s behavior, please, share them with me. I must learn about it now before the trouble arrives. :slight_smile:

#899

Anna, my only tip is an experience at my friends farm: she has a stallion who is kept in his own field and has always respected the fence that encloses him. The only problem happened when a new mare came to the farm and SHE decided to jump the fence into his enclosure one evening and an accidental breeding resulted. Also, don’t be surprised if your mares come into heat again when they get a whiff of his hormones.

#900

So, our new horse, stallion Dagy arrived. We went early this morning - he sniffed the trailer and then walked in like nothing. (I had already prepared injection for him if we shall have any serious problems like we had with Guido, but no - we did not needed anything). All the way home he was standing like he enjoyed the trip and only pranced few times when we needed to stop and wait at the crossing until huge coal train passed loudly.
At home he unloaded perfect, made few slow circles around to look at new herd, said few hellos and that was it - went into his new stable, into his new box.
Currently he is standing alone in box - his side next two boxes are empty, and the other side next to his opposite box is Guido - seems like they do like each other - not any aggro had been shown so far. Actually he has being just an angel so far. If it will continue like this we shall be really lucky.

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