Opinions on DHH crosses for jumping?

[Scribbler]

I do think there is an ammie budget market where people will be wowed by Brand Name Sires, and will be happy to buy a horse by Famous Frozen Tube out of We Think She’s an OTTB, and register him with Canadian Sport Horse. It’s like shopping for Luxury Designer at the outlet mall where they have low cost knockoffs of their own products.

Depending on how prepotent the stallion is and how accidently nice the mare is, you can get quite a decent lower level horse out of that mix. But it’s not a 40k foal. It’s however likely better at Sport Horse pursuits than the other full OTTB and QH at your low-end barn. I’ve watched a fair few come through here.

The mare in the video may be a nice example of her type, but there is nothing that says jumper to me. I think you’d get a nicer jumper out of a TB or even a good QH, plus Mr Famous Frozen.

Anyhow, I do expect that most people who bought K’s foals (about half seem to have been sold over all based on her previous reports about births) did not understand that KWPN includes a harness line, because the other WB registries don’t. Also I think that she also had stallions that were approved for multiple registries so had a high online presence.

People absolutely do go gaga over Brand Name Studs who can even be celebrities. I’m sure if I got my Nice Paint Mare in foal to say Totilas there’d be a line up around the block to buy my Colored Sport Horse even if it’s a kind of ridiculous pairing. And foal would absolutely have a bigger trot than Paint Mare! But would not be going anywhere near the Olympics or even the Big Tour.

[Warmblood1]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

My point in going back into details on this is that it’s tricky with KWPN having these different breeding directions, and then crossing different types. I absolutely agree there are plenty of examples where it works well and the resulting foal is very athletic and an improvement on sire and dam. But… Kate’s horses are not that. If she was going through a different registry with some of sort of inspection and approval requirements for the mares prior to recording foals in the foalbook, maybe it would have discouraged her from these breeding choices. If that makes sense. Because some of the mares she has been using are not good riding types.

I know a lot of breeders, a lot, but I can can pretty safely say that Kate is the first breeder that I’m aware of to take very type-y harness mares and cross them with jumper lines to produce jumpers. The vast majority of breeders do not do this. There are some breeders taking Dutch lines with heavier gelders blood and crossing them to modern dressage stallions - with proven success. But their stock is excellent with solid conformation and movement. They are specifically pairing strong traits to compliment minor weaknesses and improving upon the sire and dam for horses that are excel in dressage.

My qualm as mentioned upthread is assuming because someone has bred two different breeding directions, or because they are even using a different accepted breed and calling is a WB (if approved by registry) is nefarious or lying by omission because it generally is not. It also does not mean the horse is lesser quality. That type of breed stigma causes problems … hence this whole KS situation.

I think this thread is a great example of why the most important thing when evaluating a horse is not pedigree, registry, etc., etc., it is the horse in front of you… much like what @vxf111 is saying. Some of the greatest horses ever produced have been half breeds or from crossing breeding directions. Kate’s piss poor breeding operation is a poor reflection of any of that.

@DownYonder

I’ve been away from the breeding world too long and was never really up on KWPN policies. Do they require mare inspection like AHS, GOV (Oldenburg), etc.?

If not, KS likely chose KWPN for that reason. She could use a donor mare that had some sort of KWPN papers - even if mostly Harness-bred - and register the foals by mail without ever having to present the mare for inspection. And yes, I know she did take a least one foal to inspection - the one that came in second on the tour for jumper direction - but was that foal’s actual dam present at the inspection, or was it a surrogate mare?

Certain mares from large reputable studbooks do not require inspection. I mean, yes, this could have been her angle but she also could have utilized excellent DHH stallions, or even dressage stallions and it would have made a little more sense. I just think she is ignorant and because her DHH, Bear, was her unicorn, she thought the world needed a bunch of half DHH jumpers that she thought would sell with prolific sires.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Warmblood1

I know a lot of breeders, a lot, but I can can pretty safely say that Kate is the first breeder that I’m aware of to take very type-y harness mares and cross them with jumper lines to produce jumpers. The vast majority of breeders do not do this. There are some breeders taking Dutch lines with heavier gelders blood and crossing them to modern dressage stallions - with proven success. But their stock is excellent with solid conformation and movement. They are specifically pairing strong traits to compliment minor weaknesses and improving upon the sire and dam for horses that are excel in dressage.

Totally understood. Totally agreed.

I suspect in Kate’s head, she somehow believes she is doing the same thing. But her mares are not the same as high % gelders blood mares (who are also nice types) that knowledgeable breeders are using.

@Warmblood1

My qualm as mentioned upthread is assuming because someone has bred two different breeding directions, or because they are even using a different accepted breed and calling is a WB (if approved by registry) is nefarious or lying by omission because it generally is not. It also does not mean the horse is lesser quality. That type of breed stigma causes problems … hence this whole KS situation.

I’m not against crossbreds at all. I’ve bred, owned and ridden wonderful horses that are 50% Arab x Warmblood, 50% TB x Warmblood, and actually 50% QH x Warmblood. The difference by and between some of them was whether or not their dams were inspected and approved (if pedigree rules were satisfied). That resulted in foals getting full papers… or foals getting a COP. It was essentially the difference between foalbook and Register B in KWPN.

To me… that’s not about breed stigma. Heck - I’d rather have a very nice TB x Warmblood cross again than a full Warmblood, for many reasons. But if I was buying a filly or mare, and it had no performance career yet… would I prefer one that had full papers (or was recorded in the foalbook if KWPN), and thus had the option of a “fall back” career as a broodmare if she was injured down the road? Yes. Definitely. Would I pay a small bit more for a filly or mare with full papers, than a filly with a COP or who was in KWPN Register B? Yes. I would pay a few thousand more for the possibility of using a nice filly as a broodmare at some future point.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Soooo, for the sake of discussion, here is the full pedigree of Kate’s mare, Reba, who she recently listed for sale.

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hakuna+matata+kg

It looks to me like the mare is 37.5% Saddlebred. And that’s fine - I do understand the point others have made about outcrossing due to concerns about inbreeding. And I can understand that Saddlebreds might be a good outcross for harness type horses - same with Hackneys.

But… someone said upthread that this mare’s foals were all recorded in the KWPN foalbook. I believe I saw a post where Kate had claimed one of the 2022 colts from this mare’s eggs was a possible stallion prospect.

That claim seems problematic.

[Warmblood1]

I feel like we are going round and round here. I’ve stated my point very clearly above, I feel like I am beating a dead horse by expanding further. Also, Kate’s foals (some, at least), participated in keuring so they have full papers. Not sure what register B has to do with it? I was referring to foals with full papers that may have a TB or Arabian parent, etc. who are in a main studbook - someone could market that horse as Hanoverian (etc) and that would not be a lie if both parents were approved.

Anyways, I think this entire situation is a stunning example of mental illness. NPD, who knows, something is going on. If Kate did have the humility to consult other breeders prior to breeding (I personally do not think she did), I do not think she listened to an inkling of advice. Even her pricing is absurd. Her dialog online comes off as her knowing more than Jesus on any subject matter - her horses look starved yet she refuses to listen to any sort of feeding advice or accept even the most common standards for feeding foals such as adding a concentrate, etc. It is my only hope that these horses find a soft landing and that she truly stop breeding. The horses don’t deserve this BS and I’m sure sever could be lovely lower level mounts.

[Warmblood1]

That isn’t the mare’s pedigree.

Dutch harness horse drama. Update major mare/ foal neglect Nov 2023 post 1782 Update Kate Shearer responds post 1930 Nov 25/23

And the Hackney stallion Cambridge Cole appears twice in Reba’s sire’s pedigree. I had noted that although she listed multiple foals out of Reba, she didn’t mention Reba’s breed or pedigree, whereas for foals out of other dams, she did mention the dam’s registry. That told me right there that there was something about Reba’s bloodlines that she didn’t want to make known to potential buyers.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom, are you trolling the thread?

[vxf111]

If you have a mare who is in a registry and you use a stallion approved by that registry, lots of times you don’t need to go to an inspection at all. This breeder didn’t need to. She chose to. But she has KWPN approved mares and used KWPN approved stallions so had no obligation to attend an inspection. But she could have also done that with RPSI or AHA or a variety of other registries.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Warmblood1

I feel like we are going round and round here. I’ve stated my point very clearly above, I feel like I am beating a dead horse by expanding further. Also, Kate’s foals (some, at least), participated in keuring so they have full papers. Not sure what register B has to do with it? I was referring to foals with full papers that may have a TB or Arabian parent, etc. who are in a main studbook - someone could market that horse as Hanoverian (etc) and that would not be a lie if both parents were approved.

We are going round and round. I’m sorry. Not my intent to be obnoxious. I’m just still sort of confused. Especially after seeing Hakuna Matata’s full pedigree.

I’ll try one more time to explain why I keep on going back to register B…

Kate’s 2022 foal, Sic Vita Est KG, was by Halifax van het Kluizebos, and out of Hakuna Matata KG. Looking at this mare’s full pedigree, that makes him just short of 20% Saddlebred. I’m just surprised that he wasn’t register B. I think in many of the other open book warmblood registries, that percentage of Saddlebred blood would automatically result in the foal getting a COP, regardless of how nice it was.

Just for clarity, this is the foal that apparently was the KWPN-NA reserve champion jumper. His dam line is Saddlebred though. That just surprises/confuses me.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Warmblood1

@Virginia_Horse_Mom, are you trolling the thread?

No. That is what I see in allbreedpedigree.

Do you have different information on the mare? Kate never shares her full pedigree online.

If you have different information, then please correct the record and I will happily delete my post.

[Scribbler]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Warmblood1

I feel like we are going round and round here. I’ve stated my point very clearly above, I feel like I am beating a dead horse by expanding further. Also, Kate’s foals (some, at least), participated in keuring so they have full papers. Not sure what register B has to do with it? I was referring to foals with full papers that may have a TB or Arabian parent, etc. who are in a main studbook - someone could market that horse as Hanoverian (etc) and that would not be a lie if both parents were approved.

We are going round and round. I’m sorry. Not my intent to be obnoxious. I’m just still sort of confused. Especially after seeing Hakuna Matata’s full pedigree.

I’ll try one more time to explain why I keep on going back to register B…

Kate’s 2022 foal, Sic Vita Est KG, was by Halifax van het Kluizebos, and out of Hakuna Matata KG. Looking at this mare’s full pedigree, that makes him just short of 20% Saddlebred. I’m just surprised that he wasn’t register B. I think in many of the other open book warmblood registries, that percentage of Saddlebred blood would automatically result in the foal getting a COP, regardless of how nice it was.

Just for clarity, this is the foal that apparently was the KWPN-NA reserve champion jumper. His dam line is Saddlebred though. That just surprises/confuses me.

Well this is the thing about having different lines under one registry. It makes total sense to introduce saddlebred or Hackney genetics into a fancy harness horse line. Just like it makes sense to have TB genetics in a jumper line. But that doesn’t make the different lines exchangeable, ad we’ve all said. The KWPN registry obviously assumes that breeders will know enough to evaluate functional conformation for the desired job.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

This is what I think as well.

But @Warmblood1 is making the case that the allbreed information is wrong.

I don’t know. I’m back to being completely baffled by KWPN rules again.

And again… just to be clear… I’m not anti crossbreed, at all. Nor trying to be a breed elitist.

[Warmblood1]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Warmblood1

@Virginia_Horse_Mom, are you trolling the thread?

No. That is what I see in allbreedpedigree.

Do you have different information on the mare? Kate never shares her full pedigree online.

If you have different information, then please correct the record and I will happily delete my post.

Does this link not show up for you?

It is a link to a post with Reba’s supposed pedigree. I honestly don’t know what the mare’s pedigree is. I don’t really think it matters a great deal.

[fivestrideline]

I think Warmblood1 and Virginia Horse Mom are talking past each other.

Regardless of the KWPN confusion - these horses would’ve been more marketable (and maybe put together better) if KS had crossed with some dressage stallions and marketed them to low/mid level homes. A flashy trot and coat will often sell to the less educated buyer - though selling them all in-utero probably wouldn’t have happened regardless.

Not that it matters. This is a case of plain willful stupidity.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I did see the link. But if you follow the discussion on the other thread, everyone realizes that the mare listed there was not Kate’s mare.

That part Hackney mare is registered as “Reba”

Kate’s mare is registered as “Hakuna Matata KG” Her barn name is Reba.

Two different mares.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@fivestrideline

I think Warmblood1 and Virginia Horse Mom are talking past each other.

We are to some extent.

I do keep on pushing on this point though, because I think the distinction between foalbook and register b when buying KWPN youngstock is actually important. Same as buying a GOV foal with full papers, or a GOV foal with a COP.

[Warmblood1]

Got it. I believe I got the mare confused with another horse whose bloodlines were confirmed by a different poster. I was looking for that post and believe I mistook it for DownYonder’s. I didn’t read further in the thread. It’s all running together. My apologies.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

No worries. It is confusing. We are getting into minutiae.

[luvmyhackney]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It looks to me like the mare is 37.5% Saddlebred. And that’s fine - I do understand the point others have made about outcrossing due to concerns about inbreeding. And I can understand that Saddlebreds might be a good outcross for harness type horses - same with Hackneys.

Her ASB lines are nice. Immigrant/Calloways Mardi Gras was bred in to add some brains. He was a very nice horse. The Echo of Thunder was with Melissa Moore and a nice 5 gaited open horse. I remember him showing in NC back in the day.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Good to know. Hopefully they will go to good owners and grow up to be nice horses for someone.

But when looking for upper level warmblood jumpers, most people are not looking for horses with a Saddlebred as the tail female line.

Also, I believe that Kate’s mare, Hakuna Matata might actually be a Register B mare. So that means her foals with approved stallions are Register A. Which makes a bit more sense with this pedigree than having them be in the foalbook.

[DownYonder]

@Warmblood1

@DownYonder

I’ve been away from the breeding world too long and was never really up on KWPN policies. Do they require mare inspection like AHS, GOV (Oldenburg), etc.?

If not, KS likely chose KWPN for that reason. She could use a donor mare that had some sort of KWPN papers - even if mostly Harness-bred - and register the foals by mail without ever having to present the mare for inspection. And yes, I know she did take a least one foal to inspection - the one that came in second on the tour for jumper direction - but was that foal’s actual dam present at the inspection, or was it a surrogate mare?

Certain mares from large reputable studbooks do not require inspection. I mean, yes, this could have been her angle but she also could have utilized excellent DHH stallions, or even dressage stallions and it would have made a little more sense. I just think she is ignorant and because her DHH, Bear, was her unicorn, she thought the world needed a bunch of half DHH jumpers that she thought would sell with prolific sires.

@vxf111

If you have a mare who is in a registry and you use a stallion approved by that registry, lots of times you don’t need to go to an inspection at all. This breeder didn’t need to. She chose to. But she has KWPN approved mares and used KWPN approved stallions so had no obligation to attend an inspection. But she could have also done that with RPSI or AHA or a variety of other registries.

My point was that because her donor mare was KWPN registered, she could breed her to KWPN approved or recognized stallions and register the foals with KWPN without ever having to take either mare or foals to an inspection.

I do not think she could have registered foals out of THAT MARE with another mainstream registry like AHS or GOV (Oldenburg) without getting the mare inspected first, and I don’t know if either of those registries would have accepted her into its MMB because of the harness bloodlines. Of course I could be wrong, but I think they would look askance at the harness blood so close in her pedigree. And the Oldenburg inspectors I was familiar with would have really raised their eyebrows about KS’s breeding philosophy (trying to produce hunter or jumper foals from harness bred mares).