Opinions on DHH crosses for jumping?

I have a friend who leased her unsound mare to a repro clinic as a recip mare; and she came back from the lease fat, shiny and with her feet in good shape.

No excuse for any of this.

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We once got a recip (not from EMS) that was completely unhandled. She arrived with a nylon halter and catch rope and a warning to not remove it, as well as no name, only a number. :flushed:.

By the end of her time with us, she was fat, shiny, stood for the farrier, had her teeth done and was fully vaccinated and dewormed. Ours guys did an amazing job with her. We were sorry to send her back. THAT is the difference between responsible breeding and whatever this is. Thereā€™s no excuse for not having your recip mares look well.

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Iā€™m very familiar with EMS recips. Iā€™ve never received one that was thin, nor have Iā€™ve ever seen any that were thin. They certainly may be wild, or have long feet, or not be 100% sound (none of which is ideal), but they are never in "deplorable condition ", as far as body weight, when they leave EMS.

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YMMV :woman_shrugging:

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Thatā€™s wonderful. No reason you canā€™t work on a mares ground skills while she is carrying your valuable foal. And who wants a momma horse being feral and teaching by example?

Well, itā€™s clear that Kate doesnā€™t do this work even on her high dollar young stock. All you can do with them is chase them with a whip, from the sakes videos.

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I understand the life of a recip or broodmare isnā€™t always glamerous (examples: live outside full time, muddy, furry, barefoot) but regardless, every one SHOULD receive basic horse care (proper nutrition, feet and teeth cared for) as well as extra care such as medications, vaccinations, etc to allow them to be successful at their ā€œjobā€

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I had never heard the term ā€˜recipient mareā€™ before stumbling across this thread. Very educational. Kind of questioning what we do to mares, even in better circumstances than those of this outrageous ā€˜breederā€™. Incessant pregnancies and births? And also: the breederā€™s COTH name is so very appropriate.

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To be fair, most ET and ICSI recipient mares get a year off between foals (ā€œevery other year mareā€) because they typically go to someoneā€™s farm to foal out, and donā€™t stay at the repro facility all the time. Both geographically and logistically itā€™s a lot easier to use open mares that donā€™t have foals at foot as recips, because of the frequency of the repro checks that they need. Conversely itā€™s not at all unusual for mares bred to carry to have a foal every year.

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Mustang mares typically have a foal every year. In a coherent breeding program with good food and care, there is no problem with getting a foal every year. The big TB barns do it, ranches used to do it

Recipient mares use the same basic technology as surrogate motherā€™s in Humans.

Mares usually love their foals, itā€™s not a bad life being a broodmare with proper care.

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Some thoughts after reading this thread:
Whoever likened her breeding operation to a puppy mill is spot on. Foal mill. Heartbreaking.

I had no idea about the life of recipient mares being so sad. My mother was a small breeder, and we never did ET. Never have I ever seen mares and foals in this shape. Unfathomable. If vets see these horses do they not have an ethical obligation to report at some point? I can see if they advise her to fatten up when she claims they just came as ET mares etc but after repeatedly seeing the same pattern wouldnā€™t that be a red flag? She claims she uses Peterson & Smith somewhere in those screen shots. They are very reputable.

The unbelievable cost of doing the ET using a donor mare that is just not high quality is mind boggling. And then thinking the babies can be sold to recoup the fees. JUST STOP BREEDING! Then she can afford to feed what she has.

Iā€™m lucky to own my own farm in Ocala now, but when I rented one about 6 years ago, one of the terms in my contract was that the horses needed to have a minimum body score. I forget the scale used. I was surprised to see that but of course not concerned I would ever have an issue. That is one of the smartest things Iā€™ve seen in a farm lease.

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Given that she breeds dogs, too, one wonders about the conditions they live in.

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Allegedly not good. Iā€™ve received photos from someone who is allegedly familiar with the situation. If the photos of the dogs crates and living conditions are truly hers, then itā€™s exactly like hoarding cases Iā€™ve worked.

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Thatā€™s depressing to hear.

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Ugh, thatā€™s so sad. Poor dogs, even if they are or arenā€™t hers.

Another poster here is a ā€œdog show personā€ and has heard similarly. I actually own the breed that KS breeds and much like her horses, have never been impressed with their quality.

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Just awful if thatā€™s true. GSPs are such sensitive dogs that need lots of exercise and love. I couldnā€™t imagine leaving my two alone in a kennel for days on end, or what that would do to their physical and mental health. (Photo of my two creatures who have a whole house and backyard to roam but will always prefer to be as close to their humans as possible)

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Beautiful dogs! We have GSPs also :grin:

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Looks like on top of everything else, Kateā€™s dogs are also ā€œserviceā€ dogs. :roll_eyes:

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I have an honest nature vs. nurture question hereā€¦ Apart from all the other issues, would not a difficult or dangerous mare be modeling those behaviors to the foal in question?

Iā€™d be pretty concerned with possibility that Iā€™d put a lot of effort into choosing a sire and dam with excellent temperaments only to have the recip mare teach it to be aggressive towards humans, for instance.

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I donā€™t think thatā€™s an unreasonable concern.

When I worked for a breeding farm, we had one really difficult mare; and it was hard to handle her foals because she was so protective, and after weaning, her foals were buck wild from the limited contact. Took a look of work to get them decent to handle of the ground, as opposed to the foals of the mares who thought humans were the source or all the good food and scratches.

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