Opinions on DHH crosses for jumping?

I think this post of yours was responding to a post of @Scribbler ‘s, which was responding to a post of mine.

The post of mine was discussing a specific horse of Kate’s - the mare Hakuna Matata (Reba) that she just posted for sale.

THAT mare seems to be 100% a harness bred KWPN mare. Kate’s sales post specifically markets her as a jumper. THAT is what I am objecting to.

The latest posts on this thread were not about the foals Kate has bred that have jumper sires.

Does that make more sense to you?

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Agree with others that there is plenty to go after this woman for. Plenty.

But pretty much any ad you read is going to fail this metric:

Totally guilty :raising_hand_woman:

A WB/TB becomes a Warmblood X. A welsh/arab pony becomes a Welsh X. Straight thoroughbred? Hell, sometimes I’ll just leave the breed off entirely. Because outside of this woman’s very, very small existence in the hoss tradin’ world, there’s a whole lot of breed prejudice— as we all well know, and a lot of horses that don’t get a fair shake because of it.

I want the horse evaluated on its merits, which means I need people to watch the video, not click away because they saw the dreaded T word.

The difference of course is, they’re all proven HJ types at the very least. If they’re not proven, then I’ve evaluated and concluded that I won’t get laughed out of the industry attaching my name to it. But hers is a tale as old as time and if someone wants to write her a check for one of them? Be my guest. The horses are what they are and there’s plenty of media that demonstrates what that is. I can’t imagine that simply listing “DHH” is going to save anyone from themselves here.

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That’s fair. The omissions irritate the heck out of me though.

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I agree. Kate is listing her horses as KWPN because they are. Them being harness type doesn’t matter. If you want to tag Kate for a “lie of omission” then you’d also have to tag 99% of sellers out there. “Upper level potential” is written on pretty much every OTTB sales ad. Kate writing "jumper potential " is a marketing tactic that many many other sellers do to varying degrees of truth and success.

It’s up to the buyer to research the horse and bloodlines and book and decide if that matters to them. Especially if you’re going to shop inside a registry like KWPN.

There are so many other issues at hand

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The issue I have is the implication that a seller is being nefarious or lying by omission when generally, they are not when using different approved lineage. For example, an Arabian mare can be inspected and entered into the Hanoverian mare book. Her offspring by an approved Hanoverian sire would then be eligible for full papers. That offspring would also be eligible for the main marebook or studbook. It would not be nefarious or lying by omission to market this half Arabian offspring that is registered with full Hano papers as Hanoverian. The offspring has been fully approved as Hanoverian stock and accepted to carry on the Hanoverian bloodline by the Hano studbook. This is how open studbooks work.

One may not agree with having a half Arabian in a WB’s pedigree, but that doesn’t matter as the registry has accepted and approved it. Like others are saying, it’s up to the buyer to decide what they want. Allowing purebreds such as the Arabian, Tb, and Anglo has largely contributed to the development of the WB and the WB breeds would have suffered without them. These crosses have merit and open studbooks improve genetic diversity.

Another example is crossing jumping and dressage lines has essentially revitalized many WB lines with great success. If the registries had policed breeders and not allowed a cross of breeding directions, the stud books would have suffered.

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I totally understand what you are saying about an approved Arabian producing a “Hanoverian” that is actually a half Arab. This is the same for TBs… there are plenty of warmbloods with full papers (not COPs) from open book registries that are 50% TB, because they had a 100% TB sire or dam.

Here is the difference that I see in terms of these examples with any number of German open book registries (based on my personal experience), and what is happening with KWPN. If you take your Hanoverian example, that Arabian mare was inspected by the registry before she was approved for breeding. Theoretically she was evaluated in terms of her suitability as a riding type mare. She would have been disqualified if she had significant conformation issues, or poor movement. Same goes for TB dams with any number of studbook. The mares are evaluated for quality and type prior to approving them and offering the foals full papers. People can use unapproved TB or Arabian mares, or mares that are nice but don’t meet specific requirements - maybe are not tall enough in the case of an Arabian mare - and in those instances , foals will get a certificate of pedigree (similar to KWPN Register B, as best as I understand it) instead of full papers.

My point in going back into details on this is that it’s tricky with KWPN having these different breeding directions, and then crossing different types. I absolutely agree there are plenty of examples where it works well and the resulting foal is very athletic and an improvement on sire and dam. But… Kate’s horses are not that. If she was going through a different registry with some of sort of inspection and approval requirements for the mares prior to recording foals in the foalbook, maybe it would have discouraged her from these breeding choices. If that makes sense. Because some of the mares she has been using are not good riding types.

I hope that perspective makes some sense. Again, I know we are getting into minutiae, but I think it’s informative to compare and contrast how the processes work for different open book registries and outcrosses of one kind or another.

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Do you think she is using a different label, so to speak, to try and command a higher price?

That is my impression.

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I think so but I also think she’s probably barking up the wrong tree with that.

I am having trouble figuring out who exactly it is that will spend mid-5s for a foal, doesn’t care or know a thing about conformation, doesn’t care about performance history, and doesn’t care about program reputation-- but does care strongly enough about KWPN papers to override everything else. Like… who on earth IS that???

Most hunter people don’t care whether a horse is registered, or what it’s registered as, if it can do the job and win. Once we’re past that threshold, they like to say it’s a (1) warmblood and (2) imported… but very few hunter people have strong feelings about KWPN v. OLD v. RPSI v. AHA etc. Fanciest you can have is imported WB with some papers that came from a “name” seller overseas but very no one cares UNLESS the horse can do the job. And not a one of these foals looks like it will.

Jumper people tend to care about bloodlines but not so much registry. I do think they might be lulled in by the STALLIONS this breeder is using. But they also want to win and like to have an imported WB. They probably care a little more than hunters what the bloodline is, but I don’t think they care much more than hunter whether the papers say KWPN or Zangersheide. Again, I don’t see the KWPN being much of a draw for this market. They’re just not that into breed classes/awards. And if the dam has done nothing… I feel like this market is the most likely to be critical of THAT. This market would pay more for MTM in the name but doesn’t care what is written on top of the papers.

Dressage people do care about papers and bloodlines and breeding. I can see this market caring a bit about having KWPN papers because the registries do have nice year end awards and classes (and the Dutch are a registry that does pull out the stops on this). But I also feel like this market is the least likely to be buying really young stock and feels the strongest about having a horse come from an established PROGRAM. They want to say their horse came from High Point or Hilltop or Iron Spring. This market cares about the reputation of the program the horse came from. And they want horses already broke to ride more than the other groups.

I don’t think eventers are looking to spend what she’s asking for these foals. And they don’t tend to prioritize anything she’s putting out there. I don’t see anything here appealing to them.

Breeders/breeding class folks care very much about bloodlines and registry but also conformation and NONE of them are going to be snowed by anything this person says. I do care a little about registry because some of them give out year end awards, but I don’t care enough to buy something built upside down that moves like a sewing machine. I lament sometimes that my current horse’s registry doesn’t care much what we’re doing in the US and my older horse’s registry ABSOLUTELY DID… but I wish more that my horse was PA bred than that he was in a different registry and at the end of the day I also want to buy quality with registration being secondary. The group MOST likely to buy young stock is the group LEAST likely to be so overjoyed by the KWPN papers as to overlook everything else.

So for whom, really, is the KWPN that much of a draw?

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Great post - I agree with almost all of it.

The only quibble I have is that I do know plenty of jumper people that do care about bloodlines… mare lines in particular. Holsteiner for sure. And some jumper people will pay big bucks for unbroken young stock.

I think Kate has tried to target this segment of the market with her stallion choices and claims in her sale ads… but like you said… the people who can/will pay the prices she is asking will very likely be turned off by the conformation and condition of her mares, foals and youngstock.

As far as the specific mare, Reba, who she is trying to sell as a jumper prospect to a warmblood buyer? Well… tuigpaard or not, the mare is 11 and a career broodmare who hadn’t been ridden in years. Kate will have to let her go for a price in the 4s, realistically speaking. That’s the reality for career broodmares who have reached middle age, have not been ridden in years, and who had no show record before that.

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I agree they care about bloodlines… but I think they care about top and bottom when they do. And that’s where this breeder is going to hit a wall.

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Yup. I had a careless typo there. Meant to say mare lines :slight_smile:

I’ve been away from the breeding world too long and was never really up on KWPN policies. Do they require mare inspection like AHS, GOV (Oldenburg), etc.?

If not, KS likely chose KWPN for that reason. She could use a donor mare that had some sort of KWPN papers - even if mostly Harness-bred - and register the foals by mail without ever having to present the mare for inspection. And yes, I know she did take a least one foal to inspection - the one that came in second on the tour for jumper direction - but was that foal’s actual dam present at the inspection, or was it a surrogate mare?

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The people I can think of who would go for a horse based off KWPN alone would be the pre-teen/teenager ages where you develop a favorite breed before you’ve had the life experience to evaluate individual horses for who they are, and before you’ve learned not to be swayed by fancy breed names. Those people likely aren’t out there buying foals, either.

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And not for $40k - usually

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I do think there is an ammie budget market where people will be wowed by Brand Name Sires, and will be happy to buy a horse by Famous Frozen Tube out of We Think She’s an OTTB, and register him with Canadian Sport Horse. It’s like shopping for Luxury Designer at the outlet mall where they have low cost knockoffs of their own products.

Depending on how prepotent the stallion is and how accidently nice the mare is, you can get quite a decent lower level horse out of that mix. But it’s not a 40k foal. It’s however likely better at Sport Horse pursuits than the other full OTTB and QH at your low-end barn. I’ve watched a fair few come through here.

The mare in the video may be a nice example of her type, but there is nothing that says jumper to me. I think you’d get a nicer jumper out of a TB or even a good QH, plus Mr Famous Frozen.

Anyhow, I do expect that most people who bought K’s foals (about half seem to have been sold over all based on her previous reports about births) did not understand that KWPN includes a harness line, because the other WB registries don’t. Also I think that she also had stallions that were approved for multiple registries so had a high online presence.

People absolutely do go gaga over Brand Name Studs who can even be celebrities. I’m sure if I got my Nice Paint Mare in foal to say Totilas there’d be a line up around the block to buy my Colored Sport Horse even if it’s a kind of ridiculous pairing. And foal would absolutely have a bigger trot than Paint Mare! But would not be going anywhere near the Olympics or even the Big Tour.

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I know a lot of breeders, a lot, but I can can pretty safely say that Kate is the first breeder that I’m aware of to take very type-y harness mares and cross them with jumper lines to produce jumpers. The vast majority of breeders do not do this. There are some breeders taking Dutch lines with heavier gelders blood and crossing them to modern dressage stallions - with proven success. But their stock is excellent with solid conformation and movement. They are specifically pairing strong traits to compliment minor weaknesses and improving upon the sire and dam for horses that are excel in dressage.

My qualm as mentioned upthread is assuming because someone has bred two different breeding directions, or because they are even using a different accepted breed and calling is a WB (if approved by registry) is nefarious or lying by omission because it generally is not. It also does not mean the horse is lesser quality. That type of breed stigma causes problems … hence this whole KS situation.

I think this thread is a great example of why the most important thing when evaluating a horse is not pedigree, registry, etc., etc., it is the horse in front of you… much like what @vxf111 is saying. Some of the greatest horses ever produced have been half breeds or from crossing breeding directions. Kate’s piss poor breeding operation is a poor reflection of any of that.

Certain mares from large reputable studbooks do not require inspection. I mean, yes, this could have been her angle but she also could have utilized excellent DHH stallions, or even dressage stallions and it would have made a little more sense. I just think she is ignorant and because her DHH, Bear, was her unicorn, she thought the world needed a bunch of half DHH jumpers that she thought would sell with prolific sires.

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Totally understood. Totally agreed.

I suspect in Kate’s head, she somehow believes she is doing the same thing. But her mares are not the same as high % gelders blood mares (who are also nice types) that knowledgeable breeders are using.

I’m not against crossbreds at all. I’ve bred, owned and ridden wonderful horses that are 50% Arab x Warmblood, 50% TB x Warmblood, and actually 50% QH x Warmblood. The difference by and between some of them was whether or not their dams were inspected and approved (if pedigree rules were satisfied). That resulted in foals getting full papers… or foals getting a COP. It was essentially the difference between foalbook and Register B in KWPN.

To me… that’s not about breed stigma. Heck - I’d rather have a very nice TB x Warmblood cross again than a full Warmblood, for many reasons. But if I was buying a filly or mare, and it had no performance career yet… would I prefer one that had full papers (or was recorded in the foalbook if KWPN), and thus had the option of a “fall back” career as a broodmare if she was injured down the road? Yes. Definitely. Would I pay a small bit more for a filly or mare with full papers, than a filly with a COP or who was in KWPN Register B? Yes. I would pay a few thousand more for the possibility of using a nice filly as a broodmare at some future point.

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Soooo, for the sake of discussion, here is the full pedigree of Kate’s mare, Reba, who she recently listed for sale.

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hakuna+matata+kg

It looks to me like the mare is 37.5% Saddlebred. And that’s fine - I do understand the point others have made about outcrossing due to concerns about inbreeding. And I can understand that Saddlebreds might be a good outcross for harness type horses - same with Hackneys.

But… someone said upthread that this mare’s foals were all recorded in the KWPN foalbook. I believe I saw a post where Kate had claimed one of the 2022 colts from this mare’s eggs was a possible stallion prospect.

That claim seems problematic.

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I feel like we are going round and round here. I’ve stated my point very clearly above, I feel like I am beating a dead horse by expanding further. Also, Kate’s foals (some, at least), participated in keuring so they have full papers. Not sure what register B has to do with it? I was referring to foals with full papers that may have a TB or Arabian parent, etc. who are in a main studbook - someone could market that horse as Hanoverian (etc) and that would not be a lie if both parents were approved.

Anyways, I think this entire situation is a stunning example of mental illness. NPD, who knows, something is going on. If Kate did have the humility to consult other breeders prior to breeding (I personally do not think she did), I do not think she listened to an inkling of advice. Even her pricing is absurd. Her dialog online comes off as her knowing more than Jesus on any subject matter - her horses look starved yet she refuses to listen to any sort of feeding advice or accept even the most common standards for feeding foals such as adding a concentrate, etc. It is my only hope that these horses find a soft landing and that she truly stop breeding. The horses don’t deserve this BS and I’m sure sever could be lovely lower level mounts.

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That isn’t the mare’s pedigree.

@Virginia_Horse_Mom, are you trolling the thread?

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