If you have a mare who is in a registry and you use a stallion approved by that registry, lots of times you don’t need to go to an inspection at all. This breeder didn’t need to. She chose to. But she has KWPN approved mares and used KWPN approved stallions so had no obligation to attend an inspection. But she could have also done that with RPSI or AHA or a variety of other registries.
2 Likes
We are going round and round. I’m sorry. Not my intent to be obnoxious. I’m just still sort of confused. Especially after seeing Hakuna Matata’s full pedigree.
I’ll try one more time to explain why I keep on going back to register B…
Kate’s 2022 foal, Sic Vita Est KG, was by Halifax van het Kluizebos, and out of Hakuna Matata KG. Looking at this mare’s full pedigree, that makes him just short of 20% Saddlebred. I’m just surprised that he wasn’t register B. I think in many of the other open book warmblood registries, that percentage of Saddlebred blood would automatically result in the foal getting a COP, regardless of how nice it was.
Just for clarity, this is the foal that apparently was the KWPN-NA reserve champion jumper. His dam line is Saddlebred though. That just surprises/confuses me.
No. That is what I see in allbreedpedigree.
Do you have different information on the mare? Kate never shares her full pedigree online.
If you have different information, then please correct the record and I will happily delete my post.
2 Likes
Well this is the thing about having different lines under one registry. It makes total sense to introduce saddlebred or Hackney genetics into a fancy harness horse line. Just like it makes sense to have TB genetics in a jumper line. But that doesn’t make the different lines exchangeable, ad we’ve all said. The KWPN registry obviously assumes that breeders will know enough to evaluate functional conformation for the desired job.
3 Likes
This is what I think as well.
But @Warmblood1 is making the case that the allbreed information is wrong.
I don’t know. I’m back to being completely baffled by KWPN rules again. 
And again… just to be clear… I’m not anti crossbreed, at all. Nor trying to be a breed elitist.
Does this link not show up for you?
It is a link to a post with Reba’s supposed pedigree. I honestly don’t know what the mare’s pedigree is. I don’t really think it matters a great deal.
3 Likes
I think Warmblood1 and Virginia Horse Mom are talking past each other.
Regardless of the KWPN confusion - these horses would’ve been more marketable (and maybe put together better) if KS had crossed with some dressage stallions and marketed them to low/mid level homes. A flashy trot and coat will often sell to the less educated buyer - though selling them all in-utero probably wouldn’t have happened regardless.
Not that it matters. This is a case of plain willful stupidity.
9 Likes
I did see the link. But if you follow the discussion on the other thread, everyone realizes that the mare listed there was not Kate’s mare.
That part Hackney mare is registered as “Reba”
Kate’s mare is registered as “Hakuna Matata KG” Her barn name is Reba.
Two different mares.
2 Likes
We are to some extent.
I do keep on pushing on this point though, because I think the distinction between foalbook and register b when buying KWPN youngstock is actually important. Same as buying a GOV foal with full papers, or a GOV foal with a COP.
4 Likes
Got it. I believe I got the mare confused with another horse whose bloodlines were confirmed by a different poster. I was looking for that post and believe I mistook it for DownYonder’s. I didn’t read further in the thread. It’s all running together. My apologies.
6 Likes
No worries. It is confusing. We are getting into minutiae.
4 Likes
Her ASB lines are nice. Immigrant/Calloways Mardi Gras was bred in to add some brains. He was a very nice horse. The Echo of Thunder was with Melissa Moore and a nice 5 gaited open horse. I remember him showing in NC back in the day.
7 Likes
Good to know. Hopefully they will go to good owners and grow up to be nice horses for someone.
But when looking for upper level warmblood jumpers, most people are not looking for horses with a Saddlebred as the tail female line.
Also, I believe that Kate’s mare, Hakuna Matata might actually be a Register B mare. So that means her foals with approved stallions are Register A. Which makes a bit more sense with this pedigree than having them be in the foalbook.
1 Like
My point was that because her donor mare was KWPN registered, she could breed her to KWPN approved or recognized stallions and register the foals with KWPN without ever having to take either mare or foals to an inspection.
I do not think she could have registered foals out of THAT MARE with another mainstream registry like AHS or GOV (Oldenburg) without getting the mare inspected first, and I don’t know if either of those registries would have accepted her into its MMB because of the harness bloodlines. Of course I could be wrong, but I think they would look askance at the harness blood so close in her pedigree. And the Oldenburg inspectors I was familiar with would have really raised their eyebrows about KS’s breeding philosophy (trying to produce hunter or jumper foals from harness bred mares).
5 Likes
What about the Saddlebred blood?
I am sure she couldn’t. But had she started with a donor mare who was in another registry, she also could have set up a program where she could paper the foals without inspections. For some reason she decided she had to start with these particular donor mares (I don’t really understand why). Had she not been fixated on these mares, there were other options for a warmblood breeding program using fancy bigname stallion frozen semen and implanting embryos in recipients that similarly would have obviated the need for inspections to get papers.
1 Like
I don’t know the story on why she started with this Hakuna Matata mare but it could be that she got her for a song somewhere and then learned that since she was KWPN registered, she could breed her to KWPN approved/recognized stallions and not have to get her inspected, nor would she have to get the foals inspected. And since she was a braider primarily at H/J shows, that was her target market so she zeroed in on the jumper stallions.
I can’t remember if someone said that one “jumper direction” foal that did well at its inspection was the ONLY foal she presented at a keuring, or if there were others. If the latter, it would be interesting to learn if they were first premium or second premium. Didn’t someone say up thread (or was it on the other thread) that she threw a snit because she wanted to hold a private inspection and KWPN turned her down?
3 Likes
Also, does anyone know if the ASB stallion Immigrant was one of the two that were approved at one time by KWPN for breeding harness horses?
IIRC, KWPN approved only two ASB stallions in an experiment to see how they could improve the driving horses but they revoked their approval a few years later because neither lived up to expectations as a sire. They were also approved for ONLY the driving studbook - not for the riding studbook.
3 Likes
Hmmmm. Kate’s mare, “Hakuna Matata KG” has a stallion named “Majestiet” as broodmare sire. He is an “Immigrant” son - and “Immigrant” was an ASB.
Per Horsetelex, Immigrant was included in the Studbook at some point, and his son “Majestiet” was licensed.
What is also interesting though, is that “Hakuna Matata’s dam, “Malinda” seems to have been registered with the ADHHA. And she had a filly by Ulandro back in 2012, and that filly was registered with ADHHA as “Rebar Acres Malise.” So… this filly has the same pedigree and is the same age as Kate’s mare “Reba.”
The ADHHA studbook also offers descriptions in its database… black filly, star, snip, 4 white socks.
So it sure seems like the mare named “Reba” that Kate keeps on saying is “KWPN” is actually an ADHHA mare who was originally named “Rebar Acres Malise.”
Here’s a screenshot of the ADHHA studbook info, and again, a photo of the 11 year old mare with the matching markings.
So I’m left wondering if this mare has dual registration with ADHHA and KWPN, and two different names? Or… is she actually just an ADHHA mare that was taken to a KWPN key ring and approved for breeding after an inspection?
It’s all a bit confusing. That’s for sure. But she does seem to originally have been registered with ADHHA.
10 Likes
Someone said up thread that she did present other foals, but they were all second premium.
Wasn’t there some discussion at some point of a foal attending the keuring as tuigpaard and her finding out how to re-present the foal at a later date in order to be accepted in the jumper book, or something like that? Was the reserve champion jumper foal actually registered as a jumper?
