Wanderosayou’ve got an excellent point there. Knowing that this rider was taught in a different discipline, the instructor should have also clearly explained and shown the differences in the canter cue before OP attempted it. OP should have been well prepared by the instructor, regardless of the situation.
I don’t think any instructor wants to deliberately hurt students, but I have seen lesson barns at full capacity and waiting lists that will take more chances than they should. It shouldn’t happen, but sometimes things become more about the money and less about the quality. And if demand is consistent enough, they feel comfortable enough doing so. I still feel that is unacceptable, but it still happens regardless. There are also instructors, as you know, that really shouldn’t be teaching. Whether they just don’t have the knowledge to do so, do not make wise situations, or both. I’ve seen those as well.
With covid 19 you should not be riding. You said from that fall you went to a doctor and a chiropractor. Horse riding means you may need a doctor again in the near future
Their time and resources are needed to help stop covid 19, and not be used on people who are not sheltering in place and not doing activities that could mean above average doctor visits.
This. The first time I went out to visit my brother in New York we figured hey, why don’t I ride on a lesson with him and his trainer (he uses a lesson horse, she has lots.) The first thing his trainer did was tell me about the mare that I was riding, which she’d picked based on my brother’s description of my experience. Things like she’s stiffer on the right, so she needs to warm up more. Or when we went to jump, trainer explained “On your first time through the line, she IS going to try and stop and drop her right shoulder. She does it to everyone once, kick on and use the stick, make her go over, she doesn’t do it again once she knows you won’t let her.” Sure enough, we’re coming up on the second crossrail, and I feel her set up to try and drop me over her shoulder. So I was ready, I could adjust, we got over it, next time was fine. If I HADN’T been told it was coming, maybe if I were really tuned in to her I’d feel it, but maybe not. Would that be some kind of gotcha lesson in “If you were paying attention you’d have stayed on?” Maybe. Would that be appropriate for a trainer to do? No. I would have been VERY pissed off if I’d done a header because of something the trainer KNEW the horse did.
Because if your leg is in the correct place, and you’re sinking down into your heels like you should be you won’t lose your stirrup. I mean unless your stirrup leather breaks but other than that, if you lose a stirrup it is 100% rider error.
😂 Thanks! I’m glad I’m not alone here. I’ve never been so shocked at all of the replies in a COTH thread. It’s like everyone thinks “lesson horses” need to all be veteran-beginner-safe-semi-retirees. If you’re paying for a lesson, and you’re on a horse used in said lesson, that horse is a lesson horse. This thread is definitely making me appreciative of my equestrian education.
Literally today I let one of the teens at the barn get on my 3 year old warmblood baby. The kid is probably an intermediate rider but she had a good enough seat and soft hands. My 3 year old is also a saint which is why I even offered. The kid got a little experience riding my greenie and my greenie got experience with a kid. The kid wasn’t “training” my baby and my baby didn’t get “fried”. The kid and the horse both got miles. Two parties can benefit.
A greenie with a young beginner would be a bad choice for a lesson, an advanced student is another story. I started riding at 5 or 6 and by the time I was in my teens I was on all sorts of horses. My trainer would regularly put me up on her own horses usually ottbs, boarders horses that needed some exercise, horses she had on trial that may be purchased as lesson horses etc. They got a soft and fair rider, and I learned how to work with all sorts of horses at different levels of training. I wouldn’t have traded it for the world.
There are plenty of situations where experienced riders have been dislodged by a horse and have lost a stirrup. I think this shows a level of blame for the rider’s accident.
If I’m paying for a lesson I expect to be on a horse appropriate for what I’m learning in that lesson. Period. Not on a horse that bucks me off if I ask for the canter wrong or lose a stirrup.
Why anyone thinks differently about this is beyond me. When I was a teenager I rode very well, sometimes jumping 1.5 meters if we had the schoolie who could do it. I rode some difficult horses and learned a lot from riding them. But none of those horses were inappropriate for my skill level.
My difficult horses were the schoolmasters who would counter canter instead of getting the flying change. Not buck me off if I asked for the canter wrong or had a loose leg. What I’m seeing is a lot of young riders who are at barns that don’t have appropriate lesson horses but have a lot of excuses and those young people think that’s normal.
I was once at a barn and a fellow student said she had ridden a horse that had bucked her off 7 times in one lesson. She said she kept getting booted back on and that she’d eventually learn to not fall off. People rode the horse because he was capable of jumping very big, but most students got dumped at least once in a lesson. Usually in front of a fence, but often in the flatwork as well. She quit riding a year later.
How many “ guest riders” has your 3yo bucked off? And training history is well known to you.
This isn’t about young or Green, it’s about a Pro mounting a lesson student on a horse known to dump riders who trainer admits putting other students onto get them dumped and teach them the error of their riding skills. That’s unacceptable. Barn management is questionable anyway with regards to keeping everybody as safe as possible. More worried about losing income then safety.
Those of us of a certain age have seen trainers deliberately put students on a bad horse as a teaching tool wagging their finger as they lay in the dirt. Even on here some still advise a known dirty stopper as as a cure for neck riding knowing rider goes head first into the fence. Or cagey old SOB who has perfected the dropped shouter spin followed by nasty buck out of nowhere to teach rider the importance of a strong position.
Fortunately that theory has fallen into disfavor with most decent Pros…and riders will fall off good horses enough to learn what they are doing wrong without any help from bad horses.
OP, that barn even carry liability insurance? Dud you put in a claim with your own insurance? You do realize your carrier can go after the barn to recoup their expenses whether you consent ir not, it’s their right. And that trainer having prior knowledge of horses bad behavior and putting you on it anyway does increase her liability. It was avoidable. Any well managed, responsible teaching barn knows that.
My 3 year old has never bucked anyone off. And she’s only ever had one “guest rider” which was yesterday.
And for gods sake you guys are way overreacting. Trainers do this all the time. I knew trainer who would put you on a horse that stopped if you tipped up the neck at the jumps. You learn real quick. Same thing with catching the horse in the face or getting left behind. There’s plenty of lesson horses that will buck you off for that… as they should. There’s nothing wrong with putting an experienced student on an somewhat unforgiving greenie just because it’s a “lesson”. It humbles you. Most horses don’t just buck people off for fun. They usually buck you off for a reason. I’m glad that there are trainers instilling a sense of horsemanship in their students.
Edit- And yes I realize pros lose their stirrups too. They make errors as well. I lose my stirrup occasionally if my horse jumps me out of the tack… But that still means it’s my fault. There’s a reason you get faulted for that in an eq class and they don’t just stop the class and let you start over with a re-ride if you lose your stirrup.
I am blaming the rider for the fall. I always blame myself for my falls too, that’s just part of good horsemanship.
Just for the sake of discussion, how did OPs horsemanship benefit from a concussion and having her confidence “ shattered” by a horse known to dump student riders?
Again, not generalizing about all situations, just the specific details of this situation and if OP should continue with this barn using a known bad actor in lessons. Has nothing to do with developing horsemanship, everything to do with common sense and safety which does not equal molly coddling. Not with competent trainers anyway.
I agree 100% with this. As per the OP, the horse in question has a known history of dumping riders and is stated to be a green 4 year old rescue. I’m having a hard time imagining a situation where this is an appropriate mount for an AA lessoner that is trying to learn a new discipline.
Additionally, I don’t agree with the practice of putting green horses into a lesson program. I believe it is mostly a disservice to the horse’s training. I do understand that the classical method of horse training is cost prohibitive. Per Klimke the basic training of the young horse takes two years. Of professional / educated riding. As Groom and Taxi pointed out the cost and availability of good lesson horses has a tendency to push instructors into using less than ideal mounts.
I hear the argument of how will anyone learn to start colts if we all just ride made horses. Those interested in riding greenies that also have the necessary aptitude for it are indeed a blessing to many lesson programs. I did not get the impression from OP that was her goal when starting lessons at this facility. Perhaps I am wrong though. If OP is looking for instruction in a new discipline and not a crash course in how to ride a buck, they might consider researching other programs. In these times there are probably limited programs accepting new students due to the global pandemic. In the best of times, OP may find that the cost of lessons on well trained horses is quite a bit higher. I know in my area of exactly one program that offers lessons on high quality horses. It is the most expensive program by far.
You don’t teach people how to stop catching a horse in the mouth by putting them on a horse that will buck them off it they do it. You teach people not to catch a horse in the mouth by teaching them how to ride properly. You put them on a safe horse until they develop the strength and basic skills they need to jump without getting left behind. And you use a neck strap or have them to grab mane when learning to jump so they don’t catch the horse in the mouth.
If you have a student who is repeatedly left behind and catches the horse in the mouth while jumping, then STOP jumping because the student is not ready to jump yet.
I suspect everyone here is saying the same thing: challenging a rider who is ready (whether they know it or not) is what a good trainer does. And giving the rider the knowledge of how to best deal with the challenge is also what a good trainer does.
What isn’t entirely clear from the OP is if the trainer expected the student to be bucked off? The way the Op tells it, the trainer’s reaction post-fall was that she was not surprised OP fell, and that is exactly what OP deserved for not riding better.
If the trainer fully expected the student would be bucked off and was ok with the risk the rider would suffer a grade 2 concussion because of it, that is the problem. Especially if the trainer is doing this with numerous students. That’s just sadistic training. Someone could get much more hurt than OP did. And it doesn’t sound like the trainer is doing a good job “rescuing” this horse.
Well if she has the right attitude she’d use this as a learning experience and maybe keep her leg where it’s supposed to be so that doesn’t happen again.
Right you teach them and they learn not to do that but once you get to a certain point in your ability level where you know better it’s ok for a trainer to put you on a horse that won’t tolerate it anymore. OP described themselves as experienced so my assumption is that OP is not a beginner who loses their stirrup every time they canter. My assumption is OP probably usually has a decent seat, maybe got a little nervous and gripped with the knees, leg skipped back, stirrup was lost, OP probably gripped harder, green horse said no thank you.
That doesn’t mean the trainer was setting OP up to fail. The trainer is most likely putting it into perspective about why that happened so that OP can learn.
