Good to know! I have a rescue who has Phone Trick on the sire side and Meadowlake on the dam side. He’s has some minor arthritis in his hocks, but he stays sound with minimal maintenance. Big bodied with lots of bone, but he has the FLATTEST croup I’ve ever seen on a TB. He’s an oddball. Sweet, but odd.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8127239]
Tip #1: If a horse has Royal Charger in its pedigree, buy it at once. 
He is not found a lot, but whenever I have seen Royal Charger in a pedigree, the horse in question has been a fabulous jumper.
Tip: #2: When you see a good horse in a pedigree, do not assume that the sport horse blood comes from its sire. For instance, Mr. Prospector is not (IMHO of course ) a good sport horse sire. When you do find him in pedigrees, it is most often through his son, Fappiano. And Fappiano’s broodmare sire is Dr. Fager, an EXCELLENT sport horse influence. Do not go for the famous name, instead follow the sire and dam of that horse back until you find where the jumping genes originated. Famous horses were usually bred to top mares. That gives each side of the mating a 50/50 chance of becoming a valuable influence.
And this is why I do not think that Seattle Slew and his son AP Indy are top sport horse sires. Close inspection will often find that the high quality of the mare is the valuable part of the mating, from our point of view.
Tip #3: Just seeing a name in a pedigree does not mean as much as where it is in the pedigree. Easy examples are: Northern Dancer is more influential in tail male line, since his “good” genes were primarily passed down through his sons. OTOH, Secretariat was most successful as a broodmare sire. Ideally, he would be found in the tail female line, but, in any event, he is certainly more influential from a sport horse POV through his daughters. Another horse who seems to be more important when found in a certain position on the page is Believe It. I have had and known of a number of really good sport horses who have Believe It as a dam sire. I have never found him to be a sport horse influence when he is on the top side of a pedigree.
I differ in opinion from Viney in that I think that the genetic makeup of an early ancestor has very little effect on a current horse. By the time you get to the 5th generation, each horse only contributes 3% of his genes to its great, great, great great grandson. If you find a “good name” in a pedigree, but it is several generations removed from any current good sport horses, IMO, the “sporthorse genes” have, most likely, fallen by the wayside, and so I discount that horse as a strong positive influence.[/QUOTE]
Great post IMO
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8127464]
Every time I see Secreto, I think of the fall of Calumet as described in Wild Ride.
Lord Helpus, some people believe in the Engine Room–multiple crosses of the same ancestor in the 6th to 9th generations. In TBs which all share so much of the same basic genetic material, that’s why I personally am willing to go farther back. So many characteristics are multi-gene complexes that only looking at the immediate forebears seems to be to be a bit short sighted. If you have 13% over all of Teddy, a horse from the early 1900s, that may give you something more like him than a newer ancestor with only 4%. With TBs, it’s all mix and match from the same gene pool.
There aren’t enough pure TBs in sport horse competition that are still intact that you can easily find performers close up in the breeding lines. That’s why I like to go look and see what the ancestors have produced that have ended up in sport. With TBs in sport, it’s often a question of opportunity.[/QUOTE]
A good read but the author took a lot of “liberties” filling in the blanks.
My father bred the dam of Secreto.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8127345]
Clifton Lush
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?z=ERVo1i&d=Clifton+Lush&x=36&y=15
Interesting that she has Olden Times in almost the same position in the bottom that Clifton Lush has in the top. Olden Times is an excellent line to find in sport horses.[/QUOTE]
Classic “old school” TB pedigree
I’ll add Sky Classic to the mix. He just passed away this week. But was actively breeding up to a few years ago. When I have time I will add a few thoughts on others also.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8132137]
Classic “old school” TB pedigree[/QUOTE]
His dam has Firestreak in the same position as Stan The Man FWIW.
I have a horse out of a stallion by Danehill and a mare by Mr Prospector. He’s a great horse. Well built, good feet and most importantly nice tempered, athletic and brave. A very good jumper.
I had a mare before him who was by Bobs Return (Roberto) and by Miswaki who features many sires mentioned. She was totally different and more sensitive than my one above but she was also tough, willing and brave.
Interestingly I didn’t buy either because of breeding but because I liked them. It was only later on once ai did research that I realised both had the breeding of good TB’s for sports horses.
https://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/Vol%2032-no%201.pdf
That may be useful for anyone who is trying to learn more about longevity in certain families.
Lots and lots of prolific families, lots and lots of the same names over and over again…
Ineresting --Sky Classic is out of the same damline as the Dance with Ravens (sire of Hunt cup winner)?
[QUOTE=omare;8140867]
Ineresting --Sky Classic is out of the same damline as the Dance with Ravens (sire of Hunt cup winner)?[/QUOTE]
right? lots of interesting information to see. but no surprise. i really like DWR, seen lots of good movers out of him. sky classic is a favorite on COTH, strong dam line - strong sire line, no surprise with him either… i LOVE nijinsky personally, as well as noholme.
i was honestly surprised to see louis quatorze so far up the list… beautiful horse. i had one of his sons, spitting image of LQ but constantly battled with soundness issues with him - liked him enough brain wise to seek out several other LQ offspring and all of them had soundness issues too. glad to see i just had a ‘cracked egg’, as LQ throws some BEAUTIFUL minds & bodies.
Great resource, thanks! I was just wondering if there was something like that around the other day, since I’ve decided when I win the lotto or marry a Saudi Prince I’m going to have a breeding program for sport TBs. haha
Sky Classic is the damsire of my Nice Guy.
Dances With Ravens is the sire of my hunt’s 2015 TIP Awarded best Green Field Hunter of the year, Afternoon Treat. Both big rangy horses with big stride but loads of sensibility.
My Nice Guy came from Pat Dale and is by Mr. Greeley.
[QUOTE=retreadeventer;8141313]
Sky Classic is the damsire of my Nice Guy.
Dances With Ravens is the sire of my hunt’s 2015 TIP Awarded best Green Field Hunter of the year, Afternoon Treat. Both big rangy horses with big stride but loads of sensibility.
My Nice Guy came from Pat Dale and is by Mr. Greeley.[/QUOTE]
mr greeley is also very nice :yes:
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8127345]
Clifton Lush
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?z=ERVo1i&d=Clifton+Lush&x=36&y=15
Interesting that she has Olden Times in almost the same position in the bottom that Clifton Lush has in the top. Olden Times is an excellent line to find in sport horses.[/QUOTE]
I have an Olden Times grandson and wish I could have another. Such a classy, smart, athletic horse
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8127239]
Tip #1: If a horse has Royal Charger in its pedigree, buy it at once. He is not found a lot, but whenever I have seen Royal Charger in a pedigree, the horse in question has been a fabulous jumper.
Tip: #2: When you see a good horse in a pedigree, do not assume that the sport horse blood comes from its sire. For instance, Mr. Prospector is not (IMHO of course ) a good sport horse sire. When you do find him in pedigrees, it is most often through his son, Fappiano. And Fappiano’s broodmare sire is Dr. Fager, an EXCELLENT sport horse influence. Do not go for the famous name, instead follow the sire and dam of that horse back until you find where the jumping genes originated. Famous horses were usually bred to top mares. That gives each side of the mating a 50/50 chance of becoming a valuable influence.
And this is why I do not think that Seattle Slew and his son AP Indy are top sport horse sires. Close inspection will often find that the high quality of the mare is the valuable part of the mating, from our point of view.
Tip #3: Just seeing a name in a pedigree does not mean as much as where it is in the pedigree. Easy examples are: Northern Dancer is more influential in tail male line, since his “good” genes were primarily passed down through his sons. OTOH, Secretariat was most successful as a broodmare sire. Ideally, he would be found in the tail female line, but, in any event, he is certainly more influential from a sport horse POV through his daughters. Another horse who seems to be more important when found in a certain position on the page is Believe It. I have had and known of a number of really good sport horses who have Believe It as a dam sire. I have never found him to be a sport horse influence when he is on the top side of a pedigree.
I differ in opinion from Viney in that I think that the genetic makeup of an early ancestor has very little effect on a current horse. By the time you get to the 5th generation, each horse only contributes 3% of his genes to its great, great, great great grandson. If you find a “good name” in a pedigree, but it is several generations removed from any current good sport horses, IMO, the “sporthorse genes” have, most likely, fallen by the wayside, and so I discount that horse as a strong positive influence.[/QUOTE]
Interesting posts and I am learning a good bit as I do not have near the in-depth knowledge of the posters in this thread. The OTTB I have has Gone West, and Royal Charger.
Haven’t read the rest of thread, as am trying to do 5 things at once, but just wanted to say in response to the Slew/Indy comments, as no doubt the poster knows, I have an Indy grandson through sireline who also has Slew/Mr.P in his damline – who is a phenomenal horse with great bone/build/brain/talent.
Which is why I love to learn about bloodlines, have totally become a TB history geek, LOL, but also always remind that genetics are extremely complex & a horse shouldn’t be written off because of a few names on paper (not saying that was that post’s intent). I know for my guy, a huge reason he has such great bone & jump is that he was turf bred, his sire (AP Indy son Crowd Pleaser) was 1/2 European bred, & his damsire, Allen’s Prospect, was a MD stallion who carries some phenomenal jumping blood. His damline also has some great old blood from Citation & Swaps that I don’t see very often.
I enjoy perusing the RRTP’s Bloodline Brag, it’s grown into quite a collection & recommend it:
http://www.retiredracehorsetraining.org/component/sobipro/63-bloodline_brag?Itemid=456
I also made a photo family tree for my guy on Pinterest which is a looong work in progress but it has been fascinating to learn more amazing stories about so many amazing horses:
http://bit.ly/1JnX7QJ
About the engine room:
This week’s Pedigree Weekly from Blood Horse is by Avalyn Hunter and is about American Pharoah’s breeding. In large part she focuses on the horse’s Fred Hooper connections; but the main point is the multiple crosses in the sixth generation and back to Hyperion and such horses as Domino and Teddy. The article will be in Blood Horse’s breeding blog next week or thereabouts.
Probably mentioned before - but if there is Buckpasser or/and Turn-To in the pedigree they will jump…often the two are in the same pedigree.
A.P. Indy is coming to the top, too, now that there are more out there not exclusively in the racing industry.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8152104]
About the engine room:
This week’s Pedigree Weekly from Blood Horse is by Avalyn Hunter and is about American Pharoah’s breeding. In large part she focuses on the horse’s Fred Hooper connections; but the main point is the multiple crosses in the sixth generation and back to Hyperion and such horses as Domino and Teddy. The article will be in Blood Horse’s breeding blog next week or thereabouts.[/QUOTE]
Not trying to be snarky but his pedigree is not particularly sexy with little to talk about. He did win the Derby and now the Preakness so she had to come up with something good and interesting to talk about.
Tri Jet and Crozier were both bred and raced by Mr. Hooper. And they both were influential Florida stallions.
This is a link to his sales page when he was offered at the Saratoga Select sale. He was listed as sold for $300,000. But the seller and buyer were one and the same.
One of the girls at my barn has this guy: http://www.pedigreequery.com/wild+n+wooly
He is one of the prettiest dressage-type moving TBs I’ve ever seen. Any ideas where his movement comes from?
He is also a lovely jumper and brave, brave, brave! She adores him and I am quite green with envy.
