I just wanted to thank everyone for their responses here. You have all given me lots to think about and ultimately, I think I am going to stick close to my ethics and have decided to not comply to work the horse until lame. Hopefully it is just a minor thing/maybe growth related, but I am not comfortable taking that chance. I am going to do the groundwork I haven’t had the time to do while we wait for the vet, as the owner has given me some stuff they would like worked on anyways. Depending on the vet’s outcome, I will make a final decision there. I don’t think the owner will go against a vet, but I think the owner doesn’t want to believe the horse may have an issue currently due to not riding the horse/ seeing it visibly and part of that is driven by fear. The owner is a bit anxious to ride this horse until she has more miles on her and I think the owner worries that no exercise will mean big spooks/scary rides for her.
I have been in your situation doing catch rides and a side gig riding for others. Even had a vet confirm horse was lame (mild to moderate in all 4 limbs one one of them, actually, which is why limping wasn’t apparent). But the owner didn’t want to do anything about it. I said I had tried my best from a conditioning standpoint, but the horse was teetering on behavioral problems and was too nice to make him fried by pushing him with zero support for the lamenesses. I stopped riding that horse.
I’ve also stepped away from others where the management was working against me progressing with the horse for other reasons (like equipment issues, farrier issues, untreated ulcers). Some of these clients came back later after making no progress themselves willing to address the problems. Others did not. And that’s ok.
At the end of the day, this isn’t your horse. I know you can get invested in the project and the horse, but if you aren’t getting the support from the owner that you think the horse needs for you to be able to do a good job, then it will continue to drive you crazy and it’s best to walk away and find another one.
When I had horses going well, I had to turn down requests from others because I was at full capacity with the side gig. When the horses aren’t going so well (including with my own NQR horse), others can start to view you as the problem, which will limit your ability to move on to a different, sound horse.
I think there are many people who don’t value the type of groundwork you’re describing. And there are also many people who do value it, but they learn to do it themselves. There aren’t that many who value it, but not enough to learn it, but still enough to pay someone else to do it. With riding, there’s a huge skill difference between a novice and a pro. It also takes athleticism, so there are a lot of things owners may want to do and theoretically know how to do, but they physically can’t. Groundwork isn’t like that. It’s much more accessible. So at the end of the day, that’s kind of the problem you’re facing. I mean, if you’re doing this for free, obviously this doesn’t apply. But I think you’ll always run into this type of issue trying to market groundwork training to clients. They either won’t care, or they’ll want to learn to do it themselves. And that just leaves you with convincing people that your groundwork techniques are too complicated and skill-dependent for a novice to learn… which gets sketchy pretty quickly, as the Traveling Horse Witch thread demonstrates so vividly
Good point! I can certainly see that with a number of people, which is another reason why I tend to prioritize riding. I have come across scenarios were owners weren’t interested in groundwork or really, their horses didn’t need it, so that was generally no problem. This horse is 3 though and so it is quite beneficial at this time. I don’t think the owner doesn’t appreciate groundwork, as the owner messaged me very impressed with the horse’s response to ground training at the block. I’m definitely just being patient though and communicating to the best of my ability. If the owner refused groundwork, that would be another scenario.
I just want to caution you with this line of thinking (and maybe this quote isn’t the best example to comment off of but I’ve thought of this reading this thread-)
To put it simply, you are not a vet, you can not treat or diagnose. It isn’t your call to make whether or not the training you are doing with the horse is beneficial to their lameness. It should be the vet’s determination. It should also always be the vet’s determination what exercise (or lack of) will improve the horse. As a trainer, you have a responsibility to voice when you are concerned and when you think the owner should utilize resources beyond you - such as vet, farrier, chiro, what have you.
If you keep with that line of thinking, it will spare you from a lot of bad situations and potential liability in the future.
Probably not the best quote to make an example of. I am not claiming to diagnose or be a vet, but the horse’s NQR is visible to not only me and my statement is at face value. I simply do not care to take the risk of riding a horse NQR until a vet states that riding is otherwise okay. Without that knowledge, I could cause the horse further issues and consequences.
No need to state the obvious and make my intentions out to be something they are not. However, maybe I mistook your intention there as sometime it can be difficult to decipher the tone of a post?
You really think she’s setting herself up for liability by telling the owner she’s not going to ride an unsound horse until the owner gets a vet out to look at it? She is not making a diagnosis, she is sharing her past experience that some injuries can be made worse by continuing to exercise them. (Which is also common horse knowledge.)
Also, it is always within a rider/trainer’s responsibility to refuse to continue working with a horse they think is unsound. That is especially true if they have expressed the opinion that a vet should be consulted and the owner has refused. But can also be true even if a vet has seen the horse.
Why would there be tone in my post? It’s advice - take it or leave it.
@Gardenhorse, to answer your question - OP specifically stated owners were more interested in fancy tack than a vet. It was not stated OP was working under the guidance of a vet to train the horse. So yes, without that guidance, I think there could be issues.
I feel your post wasn’t really advice and more on the point of criticism, to be honest. It wasn’t really relevant to the line of discussion nor what I was asking advice on.
I was pretty clear that this NQR issue was visible to not only me, but also others. I don’t think pointing that issue out to the owner in needing inspection by a vet and refraining from working the horse through it constitutes me to “acting like a vet”.
I would say the same thing to anyone training or riding horses. It hasn’t nothing to do with you personally, nor am I being critical of you - I do not know you, I have no reason to be critical or take a tone.
I feel your pain!! I have always had to scrounge for rides my entire life basically and the main thing that really sucks about that is that horse owners are never going to approach horse care the way that you would. Whether it’s them not prioritizing soundness, or wanting you to do things the horse isn’t ready for, or refusing to get their teeth/saddle fit/ whatever looked at… it sucks a lot. Good for you for sticking to your guns on this.
Well that’s an offensively sweeping statement. Surely you don’t mean that all, or even the majority, of horse owners are, in your opinion, not properly caring for their horses.
I don’t think it was meant to be offensive- I think it’s true that no one will care for their horses the way you (g) would care for yours. Everyone will approach things differently, have different priorities, or were educated differently than you. It’s not malignant, usually, but sometimes frustrating.
For example, I personally prioritize lots of turnout, but some people have perfectly sound and apparently happy horses on 6 hours in the paddock and an hour on the treadmill. They may prioritize footing and good, custom tack - and that’s fine!
That statement is true and is one of the reasons trainers and Pro riders quit the business.
Don’t read that this applies to all owners at all. Plus there are some trainers who force horses to continue training and competing or even giving lessons without telling owners theres something wrong and/or it cant go without meds so the lack of ethics goes both ways.
If you have to ask if you should? You know the answer already. All you have is your reputation and horse folk have looooong memories.
I just meant it’s a common thing that happens, whether the disagreements are large enough to be deal breakers or even just tiny little annoyances.
Thank you for the clarification. I actually agree with you, then.
Recently my horse started feeling NQR to me while riding him. When he was lunged he looked fine. When he was being ridden he sometimes looked uneven but nothing glaring, but he felt off to me when I rode him. (Others told me they were not seeing anything.) When the vet was at the barn I asked her to look at him - I thought maybe he would need to start hock injections. When she saw him undersaddle she told me he was lame in his right hind. After ultra sounding and exraying, the diagnosis was a tear in the suspensory ligament and a bone chip. She also said he should have been immediately and dramatically lame when this happened. He wasn’t.
He has had 8 weeks off and shockwave treatments. Tomorrow I find out if he is healing, needs more time, or needs to be retired. I hope the owner comes around to having him looked at. If I had not thought beyond how my horse looked, he would have been in pain and causing more damage. I would hate to see that happen with a young horse.
Thanks for sharing your story! This was immediately a fear of mine. I have unfortunately dealt a lot with suspensory issues (my own horse was dealt with the unfortunate dsld diagnosis), so the owner kind of attributed my advocacy for the vet as an anxiety and guilt towards my own horse’s issues, whereas it was actually out of awareness of what could happen with continuing to ride through an undiagnosed issue (and seeing those issues when I did travel with a equine vet for 4 months).
I also know the associated costs of such issues and especially in the case of ligament issues, as you know, your looking at an upward scale of $1500-3000 here. The cheapest shockwave I had access too (before the dsld was diagnosed) was $1000 for one treatment cycle. Not saying this is a ligament issue and it could very well be something minor like the horse growing, but if it is, I was of the thought that I’d rather save the owner time, money and potential heartache. It is MUCH easier to rehab a horse of a less chronic issue than it is of a chronic one. Of course, it is also expensive to be chasing a NQR issue that is difficult to pinpoint too.
Again, disclaimer that I’m not claiming to be a vet in any capacity. I just try to do the right thing for the horses I work with and also try to be reasonable in the same. I also have myself to look out for and it doesn’t look good to be working a NQR horse in any capacity, as someone who is not the owner.
Wow, and I thought the $400 I was paying was pricey! Remind me to hug my vet next time I see her.
A kick to the hock with subsequent NQR truly does require a vet exam, at least of the hock. (I described your situation to my very non-horsey DH, and he immediately said, “Well, clearly, the vet should look at that.” From the mouths of the non-horsey. lol)
Also, just wanted to update everyone that the owner is planning to have a vet and chiro down, but is waiting to share the call. The horse is looking and feeling better this week, which I am happy to see, but we also decreased exercise, so I encouraged the owner to continue with the vet anyways to be safe, specifically pointing out the previous hock injury.
