look at the thread title
is far from the only one that hires illegals. While it may seem that these companies hire illegals just to save money and hence increase profit, the truth is that Americans really don’t want many of the jobs that they hold, like fruit/vegetable pickers. These menial jobs are hard work and don’t pay well and so don’t attract Americans. Many of the Hispanics are now legal for the harvesting seasons, but many are not.
Before the late 70’s, you only found them in the horse business in CA and the other border states, where illegals have always been a major problem. When Kathy Moore and co. came east, they brought Hispanic help, it caught on, first with Hunterdon, and the rest is history. Here in VA, you NEVER saw a Hispanic face 15 years ago. Now they are everywhere, even in little Farmville, VA. And they are now bringing their wives and kids with them, which wasn’t the case til recently.
I have no objection to people seeking a better life here, but it should be done legally and we now should be more careful than ever about who we let in. We don’t have to let “everybody” in…
Laurie
How can you be a horseperson in the true sense of the term (in my opinion, love and respect for the animals) and consider what was done by Mr. Valliere and others a “mistake?” It was not a mistake, it was deliberate. Check out your local library and read the Sports Illustrated archives. We’re not talking about allegations here, we’re talking about convictions.
I was a teenager when that happened. And I can say that it was crushing. I was naive, of course, but to learn that dozens of my heroes were the farthest thing from that was, and remains, sickening.
I agree with you, Midge. And I offer that diluting this disgusting event in equine history to “We all make mistakes,” is revisionist history at its best.
You don’t need a horse to “canter!”
Having folowed this thread through its many pages, I suppose I’m not terribly surprised by P.V.'s actions (he succumbed to the most base of human instincts, greed and arrogance) and much more surprised by those who’d defend his ‘crime’ with the admonition that the man has served his time and that it’s time to let bygones be bygones.
Yes, there is corruption and corrupt people in other sports but it never ceases to baffle me that we in the horse community seem to forgive the unforgiveable so very readily - child molesters, horse killers, come on in and have a drink with us in the exhibitor’s tent! 
Despite his crime, the man continues to prosper as a trainer. Despite his crime, there are many who will rally to his defence and point the accusatory finger, not at the guilty party, but at those who’d seek an answer to this most inexplicable of crimes.
I’d hazard a guess that had P.V. been an annonymous trainer of quarter horses on the western pleasure circuit, there’d be far fewer people indignantly rallying to his defence.
MargaretF and LCasty:
I think you both have class, too.
For a split second I thought I saw a ghost…
Roseau Platiere getting dragged up the road in Sugarbush…
Never forget.
[This message was edited by WC YellowDog on Jan. 03, 2002 at 03:41 PM.]
Dry Clean Only… I know what you meant. 
I wonder if he sent his probation officer a copy? (BTW, anyone know what happened to those poor Calvary horses stabled under the Pentagon?)
jSTR… I guess I’m just bitter and jaded. I find it nearly impossible to forgive convicted first-degree murderers, especially when the deceased is dumb, defenseless animal. If it had been YOUR horse that had been electrocuted (by accident, of course; think of Jean Slaughter Doty’s book “The Crumb”) would you still consider PV’s actions to have been “a mistake”?
PS: I hear Mike Tyson has cleaned up his act, but that doesn’t mean I would let him date my little sister. 
“People… they’re so
complicated. I suppose
that’s why I prefer
horses.”
I was going to stay out of this whole thing…but I just wanted to share a few thoughts of mine:
Every time I hear PV’s name, I think of what he and others have done to horses. Every time. I will never forget what he did, and it makes me very sad every time I think about it.
I am also one for forgiveness. Do I forgive him for his heinous act? Yes. Will I ever forget it? No. Do I think this thread is a wonderful thing? Yes. And here’s why: A lot of younger riders have no idea that this even happened. I feel that it is not so much necessary for them to know the names of such indiviuals, but to know the story of what happened. It has been said many times that when we forget history, we are doomed to repeat it. I absolutely agree, which is why this thread is so important. By getting the word out to younger equestrians, we are making them aware of the awful things that have (and unfortunately still) happen/happened. The more pages I see for this particular topic, the happier I am with the people here because by keeping it going for so long, we are forcing people to remember. One of the kids at the barn once asked me who PV was (his name had come up in a conversation), and I told her what happened. She said that she had never heard that story. I told her that that is one of the problems that arises as the years go by…the story doesn’t always get passed on, and it’s not that a lot of these kids have forgotten about it (some of them weren’t even born yet), it’s that they were never told. It is so important to share this with younger equestrians to prevent similar occurances from happening in the future (or at least make a small impact on the future).
“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversey.” Martin Luther King said that…and although we will always measure PV by what he has done, he has done his time, and fulfilled the sentence that he was given. At this point (after everything he has done, which he can never change), that may be the best thing he can do. Since his crime, he has done was was ordered of him. Will we all think of what happened when we hear his name? Most likely, yes. Will we all think about how he has done his time and deserves no further punishment? No…because a lot of people feel he deserves more. BUT by remembering, and making other people remember, we ARE punishing him by not letting this be swept under the rug.
I have always been one for forgiveness (I know what happened was awful, but where has anyone ever gotten with not forgiving?), and I can say I forgive him. I do not in any way condone what he did, in fact it makes me sick. But I will NEVER forget what happened, and I will put forth an effort to keep anyone from forgetting it. Remember…to forgive does not mean to forget.
Kate
“I love to get home after a long day and go to sleep late. I love to wake up before the sun. I love to spend the day in the sun, with it’s rays warming my skin. I love the mist of the cold hose. I love not being able to feel my fingers and toes in the winter. I love to stand on the hill, letting a friend graze in a warm wind. I love the smell of that wonderful place…I live to ride, and I ride to live.”
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Ryan, as I understand it, that was the problem. They TRIED to sell the horses, but, for various reasons, the price they would sell for was WAY less than the price they were insured for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AAAAH I understand now. As I said, I didn’t understand the whole situation.
Ryan
“Everyone is kneaded out of the same dough but not baked in the same oven.”
Please Erin…!!!
I am so tired of seeling this pop up all the time… enough is enough… it only gives him free publicity…
InWhySee-
I think it was you who created the visual of horses and tumbleweed dotting the Battery Park landscape…that was a humorous visual- thanks for that! (-:
Also, I want to know more about these horses allegly stabled under the pentagon. Is this true? I had no idea there was a stable under the Pentagon. Of course, that’s so Secy. of Defense Rumsfeld can practice his cavalry maneuvers during his lunch hour. Seriously, though, having never visited the Pentagon, can someone tell me more about this?
On PV, I agree that advertising your generosity is quite tacky…not to mention just a little heavy handed for my taste!
Correene, I think it is someplace infinitely darker and…um…ickier than the sandbox. 
‘If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?’
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And yet people who claim to be horsepeople continue to patronise these bastards, thus condoning their actions. You are rewarding them for what they have done. Why? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’ll tell you why people patronize these “trainers”… they think that they are the ones best able to get them to the winner’s circle.
They are therefore willing to overlook or minimize what these <expletive> people have done in the past.
The fact that enough people are willing to turn a blind eye (or even defend these individuals)that they can continue making a living in the horse world makes me absolutely sick to my stomach.
FWIW, I agree that there are plenty of talented professionals who are also horsemen and decent human beings, but even if riding with a killer GUARANTEED me a win, there is no way I’d do it, period.
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)
The ad that originally started the thread continues to run in Sidelines, as well.
A question for all of those other pros who can’t make it without PV, ‘What are you thinking??’
I still think it is all part of the reinstatement issue. Stay alert and stay aware.
‘If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?’
The email addy in your profile is incorrect. I have been trying adnauseum to email you…please email me.
…What kind of sentence is typical…?
Nothing is “typical” in criminal law.
…What is the usual amount of time served…?
Ditto
… is that person [defendant]…supposed…to return to… normal life?
Yes, within the laws of each jurisdiction.
Is he going to do another???
I have mixed opinions about Paul.
My first instructor was one of his good friends or buisness assosiates(this was before the whole insurance issues)I will not mention any names, though I will say that this lady was very crazy IMO, but that is besides the point. She informed my family and I of what was about to go down with Paul, even before it happened(my parents were close to her as we were also neighbors), leading me to belive she was somehow involved, but I could never prove this nor would I want to get in the middle of the mess. Needless to say my training with this lady did not last for very long after this though. The area where I use to live and ride was very well known for the ties it had w/ very shall I say, “powerfull” people. you always had to be carefull of what you said and to whom you said those things to, as more than likely if what you said could get people into trouble with the law, it could get you into serious trouble with people you would never want to mess with. And I forget who said this, but earlier I read somewhere that Paul did risk alot by wearing that wire, I know from the people up there, that I delt only a tiny bit with, just how dangerouse what he did was. I just would not like people to forget that(though I understand it is only a very, very small thing in the whole big scheme of things, but it is worth mentioning since everyone is screaming about facts, that is fact)
As much as I may not like Paul, I still have to respect that he has/can get riders to the top in the Eq classes. And to be honest, if I had the money or the horses, I would still consider training with him. I would not keep my horse stabled with him though and that would be the major consern I would have with training with him.
As far as being allowd on show grounds, I still belive that he should not be let on show grounds no matter what. What he did was inexcusable and just because he is a big name doesn’t mean he should get all his privilages back.
Sorry if my opinion seems confussing
[This message was edited by Howbzare on Jan. 11, 2002 at 09:48 PM.]
Yes, there is a Law and Order episode… it first aired the night before a sentencing hearing (I think) I was covering in Chicago for someone-or-other caught in the whole insurance fraud investigation. The lead prosecutor, Steve Miller, was joking about “his” strategy on the show.
I don’t really remember the plot of the show, but it was a good episode. I wasn’t all that fond of the book, but it does do a good job telling the story of what happened.
The point I was trying to make was that most people would feel that although a child molestor paid his dues to society they should not be in a position that involves children. People who abuse animals should not be in a position working with animals and you would be hard pressed to find someone that would knowingly hand money to a stockbroker that had been convicted of running off with a client’s lifesavings. Although these people may have “paid their debt to society” why put youself at risk? These people did not make a mistake, they murdered horses and collected insurance money for it.
