Paul Valliere Ad -October 26

[Portia]

George Lindeman, Jr. always struck me as the worst of a bad lot.

For those who don’t know, he was the “other pro” that Midge and Abby were discussing a couple of pages back whose ego was so huge he could not stand that others could do so much better with the horse than he could. The prosecutors presented evidence establishing that his motive in killing the horse was that (a) he hadn’t been able to get good performances out of the previously successful hunter, (b) he couldn’t stand the embarassment of selling the horse on and possibly having it be a success again with someone else, and © he couldn’t stand the embarassment of taking a loss on the horse. So he arranged for Tommy Burns to kill it.

His family was incredibly wealthy; the insurance money was chump change to him – it was all his *#@%ing ego.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dublin:
And for a detailed written recap, check out Hot Blood by Ken Englade. Fascinating, if horrifying, reading. Hot Blood (Amazon)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am still speechless by the pure wickedness of the schemes… (this is not the part PV was involved in):

“Oh please, nice lady, not that I would ask, but I’ve got this great horse deal that would make me tons of $$$ if only I hadn’t mislaid that cash”

“Oh, of course, honey, I could give you a loan.”

“Oh, that’s not necessary, but THANK YOU… and to show evidence of my good heart I will put the horses in your name so your investment is secured.”

So, the con man buys a bunch of worthless horses with a small amount of the money, pockets the rest and is on his way. But here’s the best part: SHE OWNS THE HORSES. Now she has to pay board on them (to the con man’s buddy) so she can figure out how to sell them…

On PV: that advertisement cost a noticable amount of money. Someone making those donations purely because it is the right thing to do would also have donated the $$$ spent on the ad. JMHO.

[Edited to fix the URL link]

[This message was edited by Portia on Nov. 02, 2001 at 11:37 AM.]

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbv:
“I think there are some crimes, including the killing of defenseless animals for profit, which should permanently disqualify a person from being employed in ANY capacity with those animals again.”

Quite alot of livestock is killed for profit every year…not with alligator clips I suppose…but not always in a pleasant, compassionate way.

I am neither a PETA supporter or making excuses for the crimes discussed on this thread… this thought just struck me when I read the above quote.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It might be noted that even most veterinarians “kill defenseless animals for profit”.

The problem isn’t really the killing - it’s the motivation and purpose. In this case, the motivation was to defraud, lie, and cheat.

[Portia]

Kitty, it was a USET Developing Rider grant, not AHSA. At the time, George Lindemann Sr. was on the USET Board of Trustees, and I think on its Executive Committee.

USET grants are not based in any part upon financial need. They have been given to many riders who are probably perfectly nice individuals but whose families are extremely wealthy and hardly need the money to enable them to compete abroad. There is a contingent of folks who would very much like to see the grant programs revised to take into account financial need as well as competition results and rankings.

[Jumphigh83]

“Nice, Kind” people DO NOT electrocute horses. Sorry but I can forgive but I choose NOT to FORGET. I forgive him for what he did but I WOULD NEVER give him the oppurtunity to do it again (ie being with and around horses esp MINE!). He lacks the moral character to make good judgement. I guess there are those that would let a child molester babysit, but not me. (He did his/her time and I forgive them…can anyone say recidivism? powerfully motivated by greed??

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

[C-Urchn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
Actually Michelle Mc is a criminal defense attorney … and sometimes her job is AWFUL.
Do a search on her name, and find some of the early posts, especially the last time we all got on this general subject. An early afternoon ride is something she richly deserves every now and then.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the Heads-Up! I’ll bet she needs an afternoon scotch too! She’s right about this thread stretching too much. I felt very uncomfortable when it headed away from the insurance fraud killings into child abuse!
Question for Michelle (I’ll bet she’s in court!): I see from your profile you have kids. Does this affect your job?

[Dementia_13]

No Betsy, you are correct.

[Lord_Helpus]

Yep, Paul rents a place adjacent to Wellington and his people school in his ring and walk on over to show. They have been doing that for years.

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Oct. 31, 2001 at 07:57 PM.]

[Kryswyn]

Apparently not. Obviously, this thread shows that feelings still run very, very high about the horse killings. When it happened, I for one, had no computer and no way and no one to share my sorrow, disgust and anger with. I’m glad that this topic came up and allowed me to share my thoughts.

And as I pointed out earlier, those who don’t remember the past are doomed to repeat it. Revisionist history has already begun on this topic. For example for anyone who believes PV was white as snow prior, Bethe points out a bad decision on PV’s part YEARS before he decided to make a really, REALLY BAD decision. It is too easy to believe that this was a ‘one off’ thing years after the fact. We need to remind people that that is not the case.

The circumstances that Charis? pointed out as ‘no one knows all the circumstances’ seem to imply that we might have made the same decision if we’d known them. I DON’T THINK SO.

~Kryswyn~
“Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo”

[HSM]

[Weatherford]

I knew a kid who was a working student at a barn where GL had horses. She used to talk about the absolutely INCREDIBLE hunter that NO ONE was allowed to TOUCH - much less ride - she used to sneak in a talk to it. Of course, it belonged to GL, and no one was allowed near it because it wouldn’t perform for him - therefore it was not allowed to be even friends with anyone else. The kind of horse she’d never be able to afford in a million years!

Poor horse!

The grooms in the Rain Forest case were 1) illegals 2) drunk 3) shot the horse deliberately because he was making noise and disturbing their card game. Not something to be glossed over as an accident! The Junior who owned him was devastated and quit riding, I think, shortly thereafter.

As I have said numerous times before, there were a number of incredible horses who disappeared under suspect circumstances in the 70’s & 80’s - but the owners/trainers couldn’t be indicted because of the statute of limitations.

[867-5309]

ditto.

“Are you doing the litmus configuration?”
~Jonathan Mardukis~
Midnight Run

[Jumphigh83]

I think we stepped on raw nerve with Mom. She knows what the truth is and when you pull her head out of the sand and show her the ugly truth…well, me thinks thou doth protest too much…Too bad. So many worthy and talented trainers out there to invest so much in so little.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

[lilblackhorse]

found this thread thru the off course link…whew, I have read thru all 10 pages instead of cleaning my house for Thanksgiving.
I too remember when this all happened, and though I do not know the people involved, I followed fairly closely. I concur with those that say never to forget. I have to admit that I am not a “forgiver” either. What these people did was a cold, calculated heinous act purely for greed and profit.
Like someone said earlier, and I will agree here, what baffles me most is that PV and others are still allowed to even BE anywhere near horses. The analogy of child molesters is a good one. They are watched, not allowed to be near any child. I don’t get it!! There have been posters on this thread that actually have Trained with this man since this happened…Nut cases who are willing to give this man the money and power that continuing to train offers just sickens me. These people should be run off, never to return, end of story. Call me uncharitable and unchristian like, but tough. He isn’t sorry in the least-like Rhett Butler said in GWTW, “YOU AREN’T SORRY YOU DID IT, YOU ARE SORRY YOU GOT CAUGHT.”…bingo.
I say screw the people who get caught, warn them off for life and then maybe people will think twice next time when they choose to electrocute an animal for profit.

whew…those 10 pages got my blood boiling, sorry, stepping off the rant podium

“If you haven’t gotten where you’re going,you probably aren’t there yet.”-George Carlin

[Jumphigh83]

One year awhile ago (when this man had NOT been showing for a while) the “clue” to the illegals was announced over the PA “Allen Chesler, please meet your party at the (insert where the INS was)” They all scattered and could avoid the site where the INS was! Not at all an inside job covering up for the aliens!!! Right or wrong, it was painfully obvious to those of us on the “inside” what was going on! Kind of sad that it had to be that way but having tried to hire natives I KNOW they want too much for too little. A sad commentary on the work ethic of todays youth.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

[Jane]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NP Fisher:
Suppose the ad in question had been placed by a trainer other than Paul Valliere? How would you react then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would wonder the motive behind it, regardless, but certainly would take more notice if it was P.V., B.W, or George Jr. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s great to make the donation, I just don’t understand why anyone would feel the need to announce it to the world as well…

[marianne]

I do not know this man but from articles that I have read about him even prior to his troubles, I would not care for him. It is fortunate that this incident and others have swung a spotlight onto all of us and our horse activities by the public. It means that we have to clean up our acts and police ourselves or else someone will do it for us. As for PV still training, I have problems with him training and teaching. For a role model in convicted felons I would look to Chuck Colson. As for separating the sin from the sinner, we will all have to be accountable for our actions otherwise, we will be like Flip Wilson’character saying “The Devil made me do it” Where has responsibility and accoutability gone??

[hifi]

OOPS!

If you can’t beat 'em, try harder. And God Bless America my home sweet home!

[LaurieB]

When I was twelve, I went to the Hulicks’ camp, Saddle River Riding Camp, for the summer. It was a strange and interesting experience, but since I was surrounded by horses, I was pretty happy. I ended up buying a horse from them at the end (funny, had they realized all along my parents had the money to do that they would have treated me better. )

Anyway, we were real novices and they obviously saw us coming. The mare turned out to be nothing they had represented her to be (why wasn’t I surprised years later when Marian Hulick was found to be a liar? )including measuring 14.3 rather than being the pony they claimed she was.

Two years later, I was showing at Fairfield with my new trainer. Riding the large pony that trainer had found for me I beat James Hulick’s Neat 'n Tidy. Not recognizing me, Marian hustled over to find out who I was. “That’s the kid you sent us,” I overheard my trainer say. “You know, the one you said would never amount to anything as a rider, but that I could probably get some money out of the parents? I guess she turned out okay after all.”

So I don’t really have any warm feelings toward the Hulicks. That said, they have gone through some hard times. James died quite young, I believe of MS. Gail, his sister, has diabetes and is blind. Marian you know about. Hank is, I think, somewhere on the fringes of the horse business, maybe running a vanning company?

[Midge]

I am always surprised by people who think he made a mistake. He did not make a mistake, he performed a deliberate act.

A mistake would be, perhaps, if he inadvertently did something to cause a horse to die and, in a panic, attempted to cover his role in the matter. A mistake, but understandable in the emotional moments following such a tragic event.

He deliberately took the time to decide the horse was never going to come to the party, (and I am surprised such an experienced ‘horseman’ would have never had a horse that didn’t work out) he needed to get out of it financially, contacted a person to do the deed, paid the person, knew when, where and how it was going to be killed, allowed it to be killed, then defrauded the rest of the horse world by filing a fraudulent insurance claim. That is one long term mistake, filled with ample opportunity to think, ‘Ya know? I am probably being stupid, here.’