Funny you should mention the <convicted> molesters. As a parent I have a bigger problem with that species.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:
I’m not saying he is a saint… Not many realize the GOOD he has done for the equine community.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tell that to the horses that died because of his GREED. 
What I do, I do for my horse, and thus I do for myself~me
Why? 
‘If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?’
the truth is, no, if it was my horse, I probably wouldn’t. I come at this from a funny perspective b/c I’m only 16. I was REALLY young when the fraud thing happened, so I assesed him as a clinician w/out knowing who he was, then went home, and my mom was like “interesting that you would like such a horrible person so much”
charter memeber, Thread Killers Anonymous
(yes, this means you should yell at me when my posts are too long, and bump threads that I kill)
"People come and go in this Forest, and they say, ‘It’s only Eeyore, so it doesn’t count.’ They walk to and fro saying ‘Ha Ha!’. BUMP MY POSTS!!!
I can’t say I will ever forgive him. I think that he and the others should NEVER be allowed to earn a living from this sport again.
There was a policeman in my town that had a terrible accident when he was drunk and driving. When he was convicted he also lost his right to be a police man. There was quite a bit of controversy around this many saying that if he was just a regular citizen it would not affect his livelyhood. But he was not a regular citizen.
I feel the same way about this situation.
PV was a Professional Trainer and I think if you commit a crime like he did you should loose your right to earn your living from these beautiful creatures
I didn’t ride when all this was going on; the first I heard of it was a couple years ago when I was looking through some old magazines and saw a brief article about it. It might have been in Practical Horseman or Horse Illustrated. They listed and had gorgeous pictures of some of the horses involved.
Aleesha
when I say forgiveness I do not mean a person should get away
with their crimes. Forgive someone & allow them to repent. I am so
against murder that I believe in the death penalty, but if someone is about
to die & wants a preacher to comfort them, then I am all for it. The person
should still receive the death sentence, but should be allowed to repent.
giving money to animals is a good thing. To burn the money would be
cutting your nose off to spite your face. I don’t think I am comfortable
with Paul Valliere coaching students in an ASPCA maclay class, but he
has a right to try to put his life back together again. He is serving his crime.
whether he is coaching behind the scenes or not, he is not allowed on a
showgrounds. That has to be the worst punishment a trainer can receive.
I do believe he is being punished & I do not believe anyone should knock
him for donating money to animals.
Midge - since we are not affiliated with USAE in any way (other than a vauge statement in the rulebook about refering to the AHSA rulebook) they can hire whoever they want
Wow - I am from NH and know Wonder Why and all the people she is refering to (with the exceptiong of PV). I really don’t know what to think of the whole thing. 
I hope he at least does a decent job (and I hope he isn’t judging the horsemanship final!. Ok that was a sick joke but I’m just a bit shocked)
Actually, SGray, some of these names are in the Englade book (Hot Blood), and I am SURE he knows the names he couldn’t publish.
Of course, we do have to figure out how to find him… 
Well, 17 pages finally got me to order my copy of Hot Blood, which I’m sure is a Good Thing, much as I like having shreds of naivete left.
Trusting y’all - or most of you - will be a support group when I read it?
Erin, I don’t think “new thoughts in the last 10 pages” is what it’s about. Actually, I’m sure it’s not. Awareness, not hiding our heads in the sand, and a real life ethical issue to contemplate are important. (if “would we ride with Paul” is too much of a no-brainer for many of us now we’ve got “how about our response to noted trainers who thank him for his help” )
Especially with all the trivial threads which do pop up, it would be a true shame to lock this. Not that I gather you’re contemplating that - it’s true, it will die a natural death sometime, but no need to speed it along.
… of course there are NO STABLES UNDER THE PENTAGON, just as there are no civilian horses stabled in midtown Manhattan south of 42nd Street! It’s called satire, m’love.
As for how I know about the Goldolphin/ Helmsley donations… the former was mentioned in an ARTICLE published in a pre-Cup issue of the Daily Racing Form. I do not recall seeing it announced in either of the New York papers before the Cup, and I read all three in the preceeding week.
The Leona Hemsley donation was written up in the New York Post AFTER someone accused her of not giving away enough free hotel rooms to the cause. To my knowledge, she has NOT yet run an ad promising that 50 percent of her profits from her hotels would be donated to charity provided YOU, the consumer, pay full price.
“People… they’re so
complicated. I suppose
that’s why I prefer
horses.”
I am not sure I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that once their time is served, someone convicted of say, molesting or killing a child, should be allowed to manage a daycare center? Or coach children’s soccer, perhaps? I mean, once they have met the conditions of their sentence…
I think there are some crimes, including the killing of defenseless animals for profit, which should permanently disqualify a person from being employed in ANY capacity with those animals again. Should they be allowed to earn a living? Yes, DOING SOMETHING ELSE.
The fact that PV is even being considered for the privilege of judging a Medal finals so that a committee can have a “big name” is something I find appalling. I think it also sends a very inappropriate message to any juniors who may compete in the event.
Frankly, I have a hard time believing that NO ONE ELSE could be found with sufficient knowledge to judge this event… (although I do believe that it may be difficult to obtain one of the handful of very well known judges such as GM.)
To appreciate heaven well
'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
Will Carleton (1845-1912)
AND…she got her license to practice back!! Not only a Shamateur but a vet too! God help us.
Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way…
I was wondering if anyone else read the articles in the Am Owner issue of COTH this year?
I was surprised to see a lengthy interview with an Am/O who rides with PV.
She is a PR person in NYC, so perhaps she is the one who had advised him to place that advertisement in COTH?
I still find the ad strange to read.
Ugh, ew, gross, tacky.
Now that that’s said, the one thing about putting an ad in the chronicle, which I’m sure this is how it will be presented later on, is that the ad publicizes this and attracts extra customers, ones who feel as though they’re doing something useful with their money. And they might otherwise not be doing it. Although, there is also personal gain.
I wouldn’t ride with him.
Hmmmmm. Ads to promote what a good person you are - this is what every good kind person and tobacco company I can think of would do. BTW, has anyone ever heard of a good con man that was not referred to a few times as “kind and goodhearted?”
Rights versus Privileges. Does a convicted person have a “right” to “get on” with their life after serving their sentence. Sure. That would be a right. Does a person who killed horses for money have the “right” to get on with their life by earning money through their membership in and acceptance by an organization such as USQEq. Well, membership in USA Eq and other organizations is a Privilege. Do we impart privileges for bad behaviour?
It is already being acknowledged that a person who planned and agreed to have a horse patiently stand still and be clipped to electrodes and fried to death is making a living training horses and riders. Gee, do we need to extend them any additional privileges?? A pat on the back and a ribbon? They are making a such a good living that they can donate 50% of their horse/lesson related income and still pay bills. Think about that. Think how few truly good, kind, talented horse people can say that. This one, who trained his horse to cooperate while being killed, can. Things are already vastly unfair, on that score alone. Some “lapses” of judgement are so serious that we cannot rely on the person again, in that context at least.
I believe a supporter of the forgive and forget camp nonetheless included the admonition “forewarned is forearmed” when they were presented with a fact pattern to analyze. Well, how would someone be forewarned if everyone agrees to sweep the incident under the rug now that time has passed?
A much abbreviated parable - A man dressed in black arrives in a small town and builds a scaffold. The town crowds around to see what he is doing. When he is done, he takes a person from the crowd, drags them to the scaffold, and hangs them. There are angry mutterings, but no one does anything. Everyday, another person is dragged up and hanged. Finally, the last villager is dragged to the scaffold. In stunned disbelief he asks the man in black, ‘why have you done this’ Before he is hanged he hears the reply “because no one stopped me.”
Sometimes, when we know a person is capable of very bad things, we need to be willing to stop them. Sometimes that means not giving them the opportunity to start. The posts - what has he done to you?- cannot be serious. The answer would be, nothing, just like the man in black did nothing to the last villager, until he pulled him onto the scaffold. So why complain until then?
If you can calmly listen to the facts of what he did - having someone electrocute the horse for profit, hear those facts and not cry, you probably are asking “what did he do to you” in good faith, and that is sad. He made me cry. He still does.
Didn’t he also attempt dressage at one point (bought Graf George?)?
And wasn’t this after he got kicked out of the AHSA?
The horse killings were discussed somewhat at the USOC hearing, mostly in connection with the AHSA’s extensive and expensive efforts to make sure the rules were enforced and the people involved were banned from all AHSA competitions --not just the hearing process, but also defending the lawsuits against the AHSA filed by George Lindemann, Jr. and others.
It was an issue because the USET was claiming it did everthing the NGB was supposed to do, but it has never had anything to do with rulemaking, enforcement, or discipline.
It was also an issue because it highlighted the need to have a very structured discipline process that is as independent as possible of the conflicts of interest that plague the USET (IMHO). The USET took no role whatsoever in the horse killing cases, nor did it ever even make a pronouncement supporting the AHSA’s efforts. It came out that George Lindeman, Sr. was a long-time USET trustee, and they held executive committee and trustees meetings in Lindemann’s offices during the period when his son was awaiting trial and the AHSA was trying to kick his son out of the sport.
This is not to suggest that the very vast majority of people involved in the USET did not and do not personally condemn and abhor any cruelty to animals – I am confident they did and they do. The issue is how easy it is to run into conflicts of interest when the people who are making the decisions are the same wealthy owners whose horses and whose connections (trainers, riders, drivers, sons & daughters) are competing for slots on the team, and how those conflicts may actually undermine the protection of the horses, or at least create the appearance that such protections might be compromised.
[This message was edited by Portia on Nov. 02, 2001 at 12:43 PM.]
mbp: A wonderful, wonderful post
cbv: Don’t worry… some of out here understand your tangent. Sometimes I think the distance that agribusiness puts between us and the products we consume (ie the cattle) makes us callous and unappreciative of the value of life in general-- which gives rise to a Tommy Burns.
