[URL=“http://www.dropbox.com/s/vwleds4plvq3ubk/12080072_10208066199078491_144710549792322661_o.jpg?dl=0”]
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwleds4plvq3ubk/12080072_10208066199078491_144710549792322661_o.jpg?dl=0
Here is my C Spot Go daughter:) She is out of a paint mare that did some eventing. Can you say “loud”? Her eyes are half blue/half brown and they reverse.
I just wanted to add, I really do appreciate the suggestions. I don’t mean to be difficult or critical. But when it comes to suggestions about thoroughbred racing stallions, I’ve already mulled over all of these guys as individuals based on their own merits. Right or wrong, I have my opinions about them and why I will or won’t consider using them.
I’ve learned a ton from this thread. Specifically, that I shouldn’t discount the DW horses because of the “look” because that look is variable. I’ve also learned that what I’m looking for in a colored stallion DOES exist-- it’s just too far from me to be practical. What I make from that is that I shouldn’t make concessions for colored stallions I’m not crazy about thinking that they are “the best that’s out there.” I should either hold out for what I want in a colored stallion or just go with what I like in a plainly colored stallion. 
[QUOTE=paintjumper63;8356436]
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwleds4plvq3ubk/12080072_10208066199078491_144710549792322661_o.jpg?dl=0
Here is my C Spot Go daughter:) She is out of a paint mare that did some eventing. Can you say “loud”? Her eyes are half blue/half brown and they reverse.[/QUOTE]
Wow, what color! I love it! You just keep making me more and more bitter that he’s so far away. :lol:
It really is SO sad that you can’t predict or breed for that type of marking! That is an APHA breeder’s dream. That’s something you’re better off buying if you want it, than trying to breed for it - just so iffy! That said you’re far more likely to get it in a red-based color than black-based, so at least you can stack your odds a little.
noting wrong with being picky. I just wish there was an equine express way to send your girl to C Spot Go.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8355836]
I was going to ask if you ever sold Challenged. He is quite nice, despite not producing color. I hope he gets a good home and best of luck on your relocation!
After all of this, I’m really questioning if I have the nerve to foray into the color world at this time with this mare. I think C Spot Run has ruined me, since I actually like him for her yet he’s too dang far! More than likely, I’ll probably just send her back to the same (nearly solid) stallion she went to this year, provided he doesn’t leave the farm:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mutadda
http://www.crestwoodfarm.com/mutadda/
He was an unconventional choice to begin with, but he just “wowed” me as an individual in a way few others ever have. I was broken hearted when she came up not in foal![/QUOTE]
We had an enormous amount of interest in Challenged when we offered him for sale…I actually had an inquiry from Ireland, just yesterday. We carefully screened the prospects and I think we made the right choice. Challenged is a flashy sabino horse…he just didn’t mesh with our DW mares. THAT isn’t why we sold him!! His foals are wonderful…if not spotted!!
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8356450]
I just wanted to add, I really do appreciate the suggestions. I don’t mean to be difficult or critical. But when it comes to suggestions about thoroughbred racing stallions, I’ve already mulled over all of these guys as individuals based on their own merits. Right or wrong, I have my opinions about them and why I will or won’t consider using them.
I’ve learned a ton from this thread. Specifically, that I shouldn’t discount the DW horses because of the “look” because that look is variable. I’ve also learned that what I’m looking for in a colored stallion DOES exist-- it’s just too far from me to be practical. What I make from that is that I shouldn’t make concessions for colored stallions I’m not crazy about thinking that they are “the best that’s out there.” I should either hold out for what I want in a colored stallion or just go with what I like in a plainly colored stallion. :)[/QUOTE]
You might want to go to our “outdated” website…webmaster skipped town with all access denied to me…www.crosscreeksporthorses.com and visit our gallery section to see the wide variety of DW horses Rambo sired. Much variety out of the same mares!!
Painted horses are so varied…I like some…HATE some patterns. When we started breeding sport horses/TB’s with color I was told by an old time breeder that when it comes to spots God does not differentiate!! All bets are off when you said “paint”. Ya get what ya get!!! If OP really wants a specific pattern/“look”…you need to BUY not breed for it!!
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;8356554]
Painted horses are so varied…I like some…HATE some patterns. When we started breeding sport horses/TB’s with color I was told by an old time breeder that when it comes to spots God does not differentiate!! All bets are off when you said “paint”. Ya get what ya get!!! If OP really wants a specific pattern/“look”…you need to BUY not breed for it!![/QUOTE]
I really am not that specific. I just thought all DWs had the same look as Puchilingui (I probably spelled that wrong)-- roany and white. I didn’t realize that gene produced such variable patterns. I thought it was that roany look, a crop out, or nothing.
You all have done a very good job of convincing me that I don’t want to breed her for color.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8356586]
I really am not that specific. I just thought all DWs had the same look as Puchilingui (I probably spelled that wrong)-- roany and white. I didn’t realize that gene produced such variable patterns. I thought it was that roany look, a crop out, or nothing.
You all have done a very good job of convincing me that I don’t want to breed her for color. :)[/QUOTE]
In that case, I also offer this horse, in N Y - LOL
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/127350/courageous-cat
Rahy and Danzig on the bottom side.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8356731]
In that case, I also offer this horse, in N Y - LOL
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/127350/courageous-cat
Rahy and Danzig on the bottom side.[/QUOTE]
Are you offering to ship her to NY? 
There are a lot of nice crosses for her in NY right now. But it’s about as senseless as sending her to Montana! Over 1,000 miles one way to most of the farms and it’s not a route frequented by shippers in my area.
This guy is one of my obsessions, albeit a bit too high on the fee and probably unlikely to negotiate: http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/119287/frost-giant
If the potential foal is for your own use…are papers that important?? You could get shipped semen from most any desired stallion breeding for sport. Just a thought.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;8356812]
If the potential foal is for your own use…are papers that important?? You could get shipped semen from most any desired stallion breeding for sport. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]
You probably missed this in earlier posts- I breed for primarily racing. So yeah, papers and live cover are non-negotiable.
I thought I might be able to get something with color who could also have a shot at running, which was why I started this thread.
[QUOTE=JB;8356469]
It really is SO sad that you can’t predict or breed for that type of marking! That is an APHA breeder’s dream. That’s something you’re better off buying if you want it, than trying to breed for it - just so iffy! That said you’re far more likely to get it in a red-based color than black-based, so at least you can stack your odds a little.[/QUOTE]
The gelding I lost last year to lymphoma looked a lot like this one. I also had a full sister to this one with similar color,more red on the face and black around the eyes.
I’m not sure about the red and black based idea as I’ve had as many black or bay frame overos as sorrel. I don’t think it matters since frame is dominant. If you get the frame gene you get the markings,regardless of base color.
The hard part is getting that gene, since of course a homozygous would also b a lethal white so it’s always a 50/50 chance of color, maybe different if breeding two frame overos but then you have the chance of a lethal.
Now sabino and rabicano, whole different ball game. And of course toveros and tobianos.
My old mare is a bay tovero with a frame gene. She’s only been bred to solid QHs after her lethal first baby. I’ve had one solid, one very minimal but legal bay tobiano, two sorrel frame overos like the one just pictured and three loud bay toveros with her markings.
Her loud tovero daughter recently had a solid bay colt bred to a solid bay but I wouldn’t be surprised by any of the above colors on her breed-back.
I once stood a solid bay QH and one of my loudest foals came from a minimal white frame overo gray mare. I got a loud frame overo with black base who turned a dark gray.
The sabino (splash overo),horse that I used to stand had about a 50% color percentage when bred to solids so I’m pretty sure that’s a dominant color pattern,too. Bad thing about that color is that deafness seems to be associated with it.
The DW that one sees in TBs seems different than most other paint genes. There are some DW APHA stallions out there and I’ve seen everything from a little belly spot to mostly white from them.
FWIW - Jerry Tyler (Puchilingui’s owner) and I were very good friends and we talked a lot and I stood Sato for him for 3 years and then arranged his sale for him.
He found that the best colour expression (Puchi Trap, Sato, etc) all came from solid mares with NO colour on them or in their background at all, and he was right. If he bred a blingy chestnut mare to Puchi he either got a star and a sock, an all white or a solid - he never got something as “neat” looking as Puchi Trap was. He often laughed when I’d tell him about my latest purchase - some blingy TB mare with tons of chrome, and he’d ask how much I paid for her (and it was usually “up there” because of the chrome!) and then he’d tell me about this beautiful wildly coloured new foal he got out of his plain bay, or black or chestnut mare that he bought for a few hundred dollars only …
I came to find that he was right … You could breed to these wildly coloured DW’s like Puchi with a plain mare and you would usually come out with something that looked like Puchi Trap
I miss him. He really blazed the path for these coloured TB’s many many years ago …
longshot for you. I believe he is in KY.
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=9315858®istry=T
https://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=9315858®istry=T&horse_name=Koda Chrome&dam_name=A Beauty in Black&foaling_year=2012&nicking_stats_indicator=Y
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91856/horse-of-different-color-third-in-his-debut
I know, you know of him. But he is close, probably available and definitely frame.
[QUOTE=Doctracy;8357008]
I’m not sure about the red and black based idea as I’ve had as many black or bay frame overos as sorrel. [/QUOTE]
Well, with the overo patterns - splash, sabino, DW, and frame - and even appy genetics, it’s a fact that black pigment suppresses white expression. This only means that all else equal, the red-based horse will be more loudly expressed than the black-based horse. It doesn’t mean there aren’t loud black-based colors, and “quiet” red-based colors There is more to just being red- or black-based when it comes to the expression, such as whether there are suppression genetics in play (other than color-based), and whether there are multiple white patterns which boost each other.
I don’t think it matters since frame is dominant. If you get the frame gene you get the markings,regardless of base color.
Nope You can have a horse without a single white hair, carry the frame gene. That’s what makes it so dangerous- you can’t ever tell by looking at a horse that they don’t carry Frame. All the overo patterns are that way - they can be as non-present as only having blue eyes on an otherwise solid horse (Splash), or not visible at all (Frame or splash or sabino), to just having teeny white coronets, to being all up in your business announcing themselves LOL
The hard part is getting that gene, since of course a homozygous would also b a lethal white so it’s always a 50/50 chance of color, maybe different if breeding two frame overos but then you have the chance of a lethal.
Also, nope, sort of It’s always a 50/50 chance of passing on each gene. When breeding Oo to Oo, it’s 25% lethal, 50% alive with the gene, and 25% alive without the gene. So you endup with 50% alive and frame, and 25% alive and without frame.
When you breed oo to Oo, you get 50% alive and with frame, and 50% alive without frame, no chance of dead. It’s still only a 50% chance at a live, frame-carrying foal. The percentage that frame expresses range from 0-100% for each carrier - totally solid, to a small side spot, to in your face obvious.
Now sabino and rabicano, whole different ball game. And of course toveros and tobianos.
Yes and no. Sabino is still in the overo category, so heritability is the same, expression is the same. Rabicano pretty much expresses if it’s there, but it can be really minimal, to the more rare very loud
My old mare is a bay tovero with a frame gene. She’s only been bred to solid QHs after her lethal first baby. I’ve had one solid, one very minimal but legal bay tobiano, two sorrel frame overos like the one just pictured and three loud bay toveros with her markings.
Her loud tovero daughter recently had a solid bay colt bred to a solid bay but I wouldn’t be surprised by any of the above colors on her breed-back.
I once stood a solid bay QH and one of my loudest foals came from a minimal white frame overo gray mare. I got a loud frame overo with black base who turned a dark gray.
The sabino (splash overo),horse that I used to stand had about a 50% color percentage when bred to solids so I’m pretty sure that’s a dominant color pattern,too. Bad thing about that color is that deafness seems to be associated with it.
The DW that one sees in TBs seems different than most other paint genes. There are some DW APHA stallions out there and I’ve seen everything from a little belly spot to mostly white from them.
Splash only produces deafness if there is a lack of pigment in the inner ear. It’s almost always the homozygous splash horses. The vast majority of splashes are hearing.
Toveros are just tobianos with the visible expression of 1 or more overo patterns. That’s not always frame - can be splash or sabino. In your mare’s case, obviously frame was also there, unfortunately. But you can’t ever count on it being safe to breed her to a solid stallion, because it is totally not any requirement for frame to be visible at all.
Breeds do have their own line of DW - Puchilingui is W5. But TBs also have W20, and W20 exists in a lot of other breeds. TBs also have several other W mutations - 2, 6, 7, among others. W19 is Arab in origin, but since Arabs outcross, it’s in other breeds/crosses. Most Ws are very specific as to either a breed in general, ie the Camarillo White has W4, because that’s the mutation that popped up in one of theirs. That breed probably doesn’t outcross W10 is a QH-originated mutation.
Every W is a new mutation, so how breed-specific it is depends on whether that breed outcrosses. But no, W19 won’t ever be found in a TB because no TB originated it.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8357039]
longshot for you. I believe he is in KY.
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=9315858®istry=T
https://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=9315858®istry=T&horse_name=Koda Chrome&dam_name=A Beauty in Black&foaling_year=2012&nicking_stats_indicator=Y
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91856/horse-of-different-color-third-in-his-debut
I know, you know of him. But he is close, probably available and definitely frame.[/QUOTE]
Go read my original post. I was hoping someone had experience with him or his sire.
[QUOTE=TrueColours;8357026]
FWIW - Jerry Tyler (Puchilingui’s owner) and I were very good friends and we talked a lot and I stood Sato for him for 3 years and then arranged his sale for him.
He found that the best colour expression (Puchi Trap, Sato, etc) all came from solid mares with NO colour on them or in their background at all, and he was right. If he bred a blingy chestnut mare to Puchi he either got a star and a sock, an all white or a solid - he never got something as “neat” looking as Puchi Trap was. He often laughed when I’d tell him about my latest purchase - some blingy TB mare with tons of chrome, and he’d ask how much I paid for her (and it was usually “up there” because of the chrome!) and then he’d tell me about this beautiful wildly coloured new foal he got out of his plain bay, or black or chestnut mare that he bought for a few hundred dollars only …
I came to find that he was right … You could breed to these wildly coloured DW’s like Puchi with a plain mare and you would usually come out with something that looked like Puchi Trap
I miss him. He really blazed the path for these coloured TB’s many many years ago … :)[/QUOTE]
Jerry was right!!! Our best color 100% producer in 7 foals by Rambo was a jet black mare without one white hair on her!! Other good ones were solid bays. Remember when you sent Old Faithful - chestnut with LOTS of chrome to breed to Rambo and got Spotted Up North…I think he had chrome and a belly spot!! “Ain’t no figuring” overo/DW production!! We got 3 pure white foals out of a black mare with a star/strip!! I stopped breeding her to Rambo…too much work to keep them clean!!
