JB …do you think loud mares bred to a minimum chrome stud would have the same results as a loud stallion to plain mares?? Breeding Challenged - a very bright sabino…blaze, 4 jagged high stockings to the loud Rambo mares didn’t do much!!
crosscreek, I think some individual combinations absolutely do work that way. I don’t know if there is any sex-link correlation with the overo patterns, but there certainly is with appy patterns - black-based mares get short-changed (again, in general, all else equal). So hormones do play some role, at some point, in white expression.
I have not seen anything like that related to DW though. That doesn’t mean it’s not possible. But DW (or as it’s called now, just White) is a KIT mutation, like Roan and Tobiano, and those don’t have any sex linkage that I’ve ever heard about, so it would stand to reason that it’s not there for W either. Meaning - I don’t think it makes any difference who the loud vs quiet patterned parent is.
I think it’s possibly more about the particular mutation. We’ve definitely seen some patterns with less loud W horses, by a loud W parent, produce loud offspring more than quieter offspring, ie the loudness "skipping a generation. " That doesn’t really make sense, I know, genetic don’t skip generations, but something definitely goes on with some of these lines - not 100% reliable, but definitely a pattern.
[QUOTE=JB;8357307]
crosscreek, I think some individual combinations absolutely do work that way. I don’t know if there is any sex-link correlation with the overo patterns, but there certainly is with appy patterns - black-based mares get short-changed (again, in general, all else equal). So hormones do play some role, at some point, in white expression.
I have not seen anything like that related to DW though. That doesn’t mean it’s not possible. But DW (or as it’s called now, just White) is a KIT mutation, like Roan and Tobiano, and those don’t have any sex linkage that I’ve ever heard about, so it would stand to reason that it’s not there for W either. Meaning - I don’t think it makes any difference who the loud vs quiet patterned parent is.
I think it’s possibly more about the particular mutation. We’ve definitely seen some patterns with less loud W horses, by a loud W parent, produce loud offspring more than quieter offspring, ie the loudness "skipping a generation. " That doesn’t really make sense, I know, genetic don’t skip generations, but something definitely goes on with some of these lines - not 100% reliable, but definitely a pattern.[/QUOTE]
Thanks JB. Just another example of breeding have no rules of Fair Play!! We have a yearling colt o/o one of Jagged Illusion’s full sisters that is gorgeous, HUGE (16 hands at 16 mo.). He is dark bay/brown with “odd” markings, a curious patch of white on one shoulder and an absolutely “to die for” disposition. Way on down the road we may try breeding him to a couple of mares. In the mean time we have bought a stunning, 16.2 hand, part TB, black/white tobiano, homozygous blk/tobie stallion with a puppy dog personality. HE will give us some nice foals…with spots!! He has already sired World Champ., Paint and Pinto show horses!!
OP, I just saw photos of two of Peak Dancer yearlings (from the VTA futurity) and both are chestnuts with some bling. A filly, with high whites behind and a really interesting colt named Braxton (high whites, big blaze, belly spot and some pretty heavy rabicano stuff coming through). Found a couple of photos of him on this facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/epftrainingcenter - scroll down to the postings on September 6 and August 20th for shots of him from both sides.
Couldn’t find a photo of Peak Dancer, but I did find his page from the WV TB stallion registry from 2014: http://www.wvtba.net/linked/2014_stallion_directory_41.pdf
I have one, but you’ll have to wait a bit because he is just a weanling. Homozygous black. Sired by Risque Remarque. Should mature at 16.2h.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-KJHNeeZZU
I also have a DW stallion, but he is an Anglo Arabian (a yearling). His dam is by Puchilingui. She is the brown horse with stockings. His sire is a rabicano Anglo Arabian. Crossing a DW with a rabicano amplifies the expression of DW.
[QUOTE=allanglos;8420227]
I have one, but you’ll have to wait a bit because he is just a weanling. Homozygous black. Sired by Risque Remarque. Should mature at 16.2h.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-KJHNeeZZU[/QUOTE]
He is lovely! I’ll definitely have to keep him in mind for the future if I get a wild hair and have the right mare. I really like the bottom half of his pedigree as well. Unfortunately, my current mare with “spots” is 22 and doesn’t have the luxury of waiting on a weanling! 
She is either going to go back to the stallion she went to this year (and hope she actually gets in foal this time) or one of the other TBs on my short list. I think I’ll have to wait to try for color for another lifetime with another mare.
Have you looked at Jersey Town? Gone West and Storm cat both produce a LOT of white, which is a bonus for a horse that could really run. Every single dam for the first 5 dams has produced graded stakes level talent, and there are some good stallions in that line.
Some of his babies have a lot of white on them…
Have you looked at Jersey Town? Gone West and Storm cat both produce a LOT of white, which is a bonus for a horse that could really run. Every single dam for the first 5 dams has produced graded stakes level talent, and there are some good stallions in that line.
Some of his babies have a lot of white on them…
[QUOTE=Helen_S;8421430]
Have you looked at Jersey Town? Gone West and Storm cat both produce a LOT of white, which is a bonus for a horse that could really run. Every single dam for the first 5 dams has produced graded stakes level talent, and there are some good stallions in that line.
Some of his babies have a lot of white on them…[/QUOTE]
He is very nice, but a bit outside my budget! I had talked to Darby Dan about him a couple years ago and they swayed me away as well based on the cross with my mare.
I’m pretty excited about my short list for her this year, with or without color. But I have not signed any contracts yet!
[QUOTE=JB;8356469]
It really is SO sad that you can’t predict or breed for that type of marking! That is an APHA breeder’s dream. That’s something you’re better off buying if you want it, than trying to breed for it - just so iffy! That said you’re far more likely to get it in a red-based color than black-based, so at least you can stack your odds a little.[/QUOTE]
Not meaning to derail this conversation, but is this true in Pinto breeding as well? Specifically, is a dark bay mare less likely to produce color from a Pinto stallion than a chestnut mare?
[QUOTE=allanglos;8420227]
I have one, but you’ll have to wait a bit because he is just a weanling. Homozygous black. Sired by Risque Remarque. Should mature at 16.2h.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-KJHNeeZZU[/QUOTE]
Pedigree? I have a paint/tb cross that is solid and will be looking to breed her in the future:)
[QUOTE=Cartier;8421587]
Not meaning to derail this conversation, but is this true in Pinto breeding as well? Specifically, is a dark bay mare less likely to produce color from a Pinto stallion than a chestnut mare?[/QUOTE]
Yes, that really is the case in Pinto breeding and not just Paint.
[QUOTE=Cartier;8421587]
Not meaning to derail this conversation, but is this true in Pinto breeding as well? Specifically, is a dark bay mare less likely to produce color from a Pinto stallion than a chestnut mare?[/QUOTE]
The pinto genes are the pinto genes The encompass all the sabinos, splash whites, frame, (dominant) whites, etc. Tobiano is also a pinto gene, but it is not governed by the extension gene in terms of expression, though it is linked to extension so gets attached to one copy or the other (in the case of hetero, obviously homo would have a T attached to each extension gene).
As to the “specifically” situation - it depends on what color the foal ends up, to a large degree. If that bay/brown mare is Ee and passes on the e, to produce a chestnut foal (with the stallion also obviously passing an e), then the resulting foal could be much louder than either parent.
Likewise, in the reverse, if a loud bay and loud chestnut parent produce a black foal, it could easily have very little white.
[QUOTE=paintjumper63;8421589]
Pedigree? I have a paint/tb cross that is solid and will be looking to breed her in the future:)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Cartier;8421587]
Not meaning to derail this conversation, but is this true in Pinto breeding as well? Specifically, is a dark bay mare less likely to produce color from a Pinto stallion than a chestnut mare?[/QUOTE]
In the case of most Overo patterns yes.but: depends on if there is a recessive red as well. If the foal comes out chestnut ( parents are recessive red carriers) from dark parents then often the foal does have more white.
Tobiano is a different thing. In WBs from the Samber line it’s usually color linked to the black.
I have only read a couple of replies to your post, but I did see you mention Get Stormy as a possibility. I looked at him for my mare , loved him, good racehorse, tons of personality, and pretty stinking cute!
However I was at Fasig Tipton in Oct and we looked at quite a few of his babies, he really stamps himself, in everything but color!
All the ones we looked at had very little white,
but they were very nice , just not colorful
[QUOTE=Forego;8424711]
I have only read a couple of replies to your post, but I did see you mention Get Stormy as a possibility. I looked at him for my mare , loved him, good racehorse, tons of personality, and pretty stinking cute!
However I was at Fasig Tipton in Oct and we looked at quite a few of his babies, he really stamps himself, in everything but color!
All the ones we looked at had very little white,
but they were very nice , just not colorful[/QUOTE]
Thanks! And I very much agree. Since originally starting this thread, I’ve come across a few more yearlings by him.
He’s always on the list, as I like him as an individual a whole lot, but I don’t believe she’ll be visiting him this year unless I get a better deal on a season to him as opposed to the other stallions I’m considering.
Have you seen Imagining, in Maryland?
http://i.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/pdfs/imagining.pdf
3 high whites and a distinct belly spot. Tons of talent, tons of family, and tons of class, although if you’re not interested in a grass horse he isn’t for you.
[QUOTE=Helen_S;8432788]
Have you seen Imagining, in Maryland?
http://i.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/pdfs/imagining.pdf
3 high whites and a distinct belly spot. Tons of talent, tons of family, and tons of class, although if you’re not interested in a grass horse he isn’t for you.[/QUOTE]
I actually DID see he was joining their roster this year and was very bummed that I don’t live in Maryland anymore!
Grass breeding is fine… she is from a turf family and her own foals are typically best suited for the turf (although they haven’t always ended up running on it). It doesn’t bother me personally, it’s just hard to find races written for turf horses of average ability.
