Plaid Horse Article - Class Limits

[Amberley]

I would imagine everyone posting here is a millionaire household, it’s just your total assets. If you bought a house here pre 2020, have a 401k or pension, are married, over 40 and have enough money left for horses your household assets are probably in that range. Your post comes across as aggressive and a little creepy, not snarky as I think you imagined it would.

Shows have not run this way since the dawn of time - when I worked here 25 years ago there was a thriving 2 and 3 day show circuit that cost a fraction of what they do now and hardly anyone did multiple week long shows in a month. The higher divisions were usually full and unrated classes were at unrated shows. Things change all the time.

[Amberley]

Great - and where do you think the US systems falls compared to those others for the athlete? Not client or coach but the athlete human and equine?

[dags]

@Amberley

Your post comes across as aggressive and a little creepy, not snarky as I think you imagined it would.

Out of curiosity, how do you think your posts come across? I don’t think people here aren’t interested in discussing change, I just don’t think they’re interested in discussing it with someone that vacillates between palatable disdain for the hunters and blatant hostility towards anyone trying to participate in it.

[Amberley]

I would imagine my posts come across as extremely frustrated and annoyed with people who absolutely refuse to even consider addressing horse welfare issues and continue to insist there is no physical way to do so.

The problems in the hunters are taking other horse sports down too but I think I will take the advice of the people who have messaged me and give up. Clearly horse welfare is far down the list of concerns - after convenience, keeping trainers happy and not having to learn new things.

[neigh]

I’m sorry everything has to be your way or the highway. Nothing you have suggested is viable IMO. Constant criticism is counter productive and doesn’t move anything towards a satisfactory and sustainable solution. I don’t believe I am alone in thinking this. If you find us unacceptable, than maybe participating in another discussiom would suit you better.

[trubandloki]

Reading the pony finals thread it seems like there are lots of kids and ponies that made it to pony finals just fine. It also sounds like the new jumper divisions filled right up too.

[spotlights]

The proposal to limit weekly show classes per horse overlooks a critical factor: warmup jumps. While some trainers will jump 2-3 warmup jumps, others routinely will jump 20+ before entering the ring. If our goal is to protect horse welfare by reducing jump stress, should we also place a cap on warmup jumps? We could be creating a new problem in which trainers increase the number of warmup jumps instead of entering schooling rounds so they don’t hit their cap.

[HJdaydream]

I see what you are saying, but I don’t think it’s the same thing. IMO, people are often motivated to enter excessive classes for ribbons and time in the show ring. Jumping a warm-up jump in a crowded warm-up ring is not nearly the same experience for the competitor as getting to jump around a show course.

[kenyarider]

Well, it’s like apples and oranges for me. The hunters (I did in US and Canada) are what they are, and jumpers in UK and Kenya were so different. We had a time to go and we went. Coaches? No trainers and or coaches for me in Kenya or UK. I agree that class limits would be a positive thing for hunters and I hope that Jay’s proposal which is on the USEF or USHJA meeting agenda gains some traction and things improve.

[Amberley]

Yes That proposal is much better than NT’s which was the only one I’d seen previously. The USEF overuse statement left it too vague and put the onus on competitors to report, which we all know that doesn’t work. Jay recommended it be part of the entry system too which just makes sense.

The last week of Thermal had so many sour horses scraping around with ears back that it was honestly uncomfortable to watch. Things need to change.

[NaturallyHappy]

@spotlights

We could be creating a new problem in which trainers increase the number of warmup jumps instead of entering schooling rounds so they don’t hit their cap.

Very realistic point.

[Montanas_Girl]

I am not arguing against class limits, but there are some logistical considerations that make it hard to enforce a rule like this, which have already been brought up multiple times.

What I find ridiculous is @Amberley’s assertion that “all other” disciplines have these kinds of rules. That simply isn’t true. Dressage has a limit on the number of tests per day. Eventing, I presume, has a limit. Probably combined driving, too, by virtue of the format. Outside of that, I am not familiar with any other breed or discipline event that limits the number of classes a horse can show in per event. Often there are de facto limits that come into place based on the eligibility rules of each division, but that isn’t the same as what is being discussed here.

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

[Peggy]

Here’s the Kathy Serio post for anyone interested. Apologies if someone already posted it.

Kathy Brown Serio

My read on it is that she’s mostly bemoaning the demise of the conformation divisions (and braiding). It does seem weird that people would enter and then scratch that particular division: I’d expect it to be more of a thing in the divisions used for warmup. It is an interesting post of some of difficulties with the hunter divisions.

[RAyers]

Eventing forbids a horse doing more than 1 level and forbids any other person, other than the one competing that horse, to ride the horse at or during competition. Thus, an eventer only has 1 “class” per day if it’s a 3-day. It can be a max of 3 “classes” (dressage, cross-country, stadium) in a day at 1-day horse trials.

We are not an appropriate comparison.

[Pennywell_Bay]

and owners not wanting to buy horses for the pros. And the low level hunter classes (which who cares if they do not payout, they are wildly popular and pay for some trainers to be able to do the higher classes by virtue of their students). I am so tired of the "you could only do 3’6. The AHSA formally recognized the 3 foot division in the 90s, I believe. It grew participation for shows among AAs who didn’t own a horse or didn’t want to compete in the 3’6. Why is 3’6 the magic number for these people? Yes, 3’6 is where the rubber meets the road in pace, scope, accuracy etc and is a “talent filter” for both horse and rider.

There is a huge group of adult amateurs who:

• Have the money to support the industry.
• Want to ride well and be competitive.
• Are not interested (or physically able) to jump 3’6" week in and week out.

Pros who treat 3’0" or 2’6" like it’s somehow less worthy , they’re biting the hand that feeds them

If the industry were only composed of people riding at 3’6" and above, it would collapse financially . The 2’6"-3’0" (and gasp below) amateur divisions fill the classes, pay the bills, and buy the horses that keep pros in business.

So no — it’s not “bad” at all that there’s a large population riding at those levels. It’s sustainable, smart, and supportive of the entire system. I know- not what this thread is about.

[enjoytheride]

I was also surprised to hear I was a millionaire. My 2004 truck with manual windows and no AC says otherwise.

I haven’t heard anyone advocating against class limits, just that you need to understand how HJ shows (or any open show) actually run to be able to enact change that will be effective and accepted.

[trubandloki]

@enjoytheride

I was also surprised to hear I was a millionaire

Yes, that comment made me laugh so hard I was chocking on my soda.

What an imaginary world some people live in.

@enjoytheride

I haven’t heard anyone advocating against class limits, just that you need to understand how HJ shows (or any open show) actually run to be able to enact change that will be effective and accepted.

Very well said!

[beowulf]

@Montanas_Girl

What I find ridiculous is @Amberley’s assertion that “all other” disciplines have these kinds of rules. That simply isn’t true. Dressage has a limit on the number of tests per day. Eventing, I presume, has a limit.

Eventing, dressage, and western dressage have limits. If you’re only allowed to do 1 class a day, that’ll limit how many classes you can do a week (7). Not directed at you per se, but I wouldn’t compare HJ to Eventing or Dressage. HJ shows can run for 2 weeks. Eventing and dressage typically only run over a weekend unless it’s a championship.

HJ has a lot of public welfare issues, and this is coming from an eventer/racing enthusiast that has had their share of dark days. I can see both sides and their concerns, but think for the horse that limiting classes makes sense.

[trubandloki]

@beowulf

They do have limits. Eventing also has a limitation on how many back-to-back shows a horse can do. Dressage & western dressage also impose limits.

You named the two sports that @Montanas_Girl admits that there are limits, as stated in the very post you quoted.

There are lots and lots of other types of shows out there and the point being made is that certain posters are stirring the pot with untrue statements that “all other” disciplines have these kinds of rules.

I don’t think anyone here is fully against showing limits.

( Edit to add, I now see you edited your post and it reads nothing like what it read like before. )

I have not done any rated showing in some years but I had a thought last night on the class limit topic.
It kind of goes hand in hand with the article that is being posted in the threads about this topic.

When I was showing, other barns would gladly toss a rider into a division to fill the division (that they qualified for but was not riding in) for someone else trying to qualify when the division happened to fall short of riders.

With limits it is doubtful that this gesture will be a thing moving forward.

[beowulf]

@trubandloki

You named the two sports that @Montanas_Girl admits that there are limits, as stated in the very post you quoted.

Yes, I did. I was confirming (since they said 'presume’) and continuing the conversation about those two. Even though either sport doesn’t have a de facto weekly class limit, if they have a daily class limit it restricts the number of classes you can do per week. A rule written for weekly limits isn’t necessary. I can edit my wording to make that more clear since you misunderstood me.

I believe many sports have a rule about maximum number of starts a day in some way, but I can only speak for the ones I’m familiar with.