Plaid Horse Article - Class Limits

[hrlo_1722]

Thank you for saying this more eloquently than I could have.

[neigh]

Each discipline is unique unto itself. Trying to justify making a rule based on its success or failure in a completely different discipline is non-productive, IMO.

[beowulf]

Yes. I’m in full agreement which is why I said:

@beowulf

Not directed at you per se, but I wouldn’t compare HJ to Eventing or Dressage. HJ shows can run for 2 weeks. Eventing and dressage typically only run over a weekend unless it’s a championship.

[Mcl1]

@enjoytheride

A BIG issue is that 4 long stirrup rounds is vastly less taxing on a horse than 4 1.20 jumper rounds

I was just thinking about this as I recently watched some short/long stirrup classes at a few shows. Although the jumps are obviously lower, there is a much higher likelihood that the horses are older / stiff / have physical limitations, and then you have the whole inexperienced and often nervous rider factor. I saw horses getting caught in the mouth, sat down on over a jump, swimming through a long spot, etc. I also saw a <2 ft horse get “warmed up” via trotting circles for 30+ minutes on a 90 degree day (I don’t think there was any ill intent, just a kid sent to go warm up alone with no supervision). So I don’t think a reasonable class limit would be ridiculous even if the jumps are small.

[fivestrideline]

@enjoytheride

I was also surprised to hear I was a millionaire.

Same here! Can confirm I am nowhere NEAR touching that line - I don’t even own a house. My 2002 Toyota was given to me by my parents when I turned 16 and is still the daily driver. Investments line up with that lifestyle (minimal ).

A lot of assumptions, stubborn intentional ignorance, and self-righteous nonsense going around . Turns out that this is the internet and GASP other people ride horses outside the US! WOW!

Anyway. As far as the warmups and lower classes, I say “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good”. We have to start somewhere, and we have known enforcement issues with poorly written rules. Get something that is a start, is enforceable, and does not require a complete revamp from the ground up of the entire discipline.

[enjoytheride]

I still don’t see why, after figuring out a limit, we can’t do it at the end of the show. A show reporting you to USEF because your bill said you did too many classes has just as much of an effect as changing the entire way the add scratch shows work.

It’s really difficult, as MOST people self limit the bigger the fences get anyway, and then what do you do about warm up fences, how people are allowed to ride in the warm up, and what about shows that have 35 in hand classes before the saddle classes even start?

[trubandloki]

@Mcl1

(I don’t think there was any ill intent, just a kid sent to go warm up alone with no supervision)

But if you read the various threads on this topic going right now, if you (general) can’t warm up alone with out your trainer you should not be allowed to show… and now you are implying there is an issue with someone warming up alone.

[albytb]

@enjoytheride

It’s really difficult, as MOST people self limit the bigger the fences get anyway, and then what do you do about warm up fences, how people are allowed to ride in the warm up

I do think it would be nice if stewards were a little stricter with the amount of jumping that happens during the warm up or schooling after hours, as some of what I’ve seen is wildly inappropriate (doing an entire 3’6 course 5+ times…), but I assume that would require some actual guidelines. And stewards having the guts to say something… I sure wouldn’t

[Tackpud]

@enjoytheride

I still don’t see why, after figuring out a limit, we can’t do it at the end of the show. A show reporting you to USEF because your bill said you did too many classes has just as much of an effect as changing the entire way the add scratch shows work.

While this might work for future shows after a trainer or rider or owner is sanctioned, it does nothing to help the horse at the show where it is overworked. And that day of overwork might be the final nail in the horses coffin so to speak - the overwork could cause lameness, overheating leading to internal issues or even death, or a host of other not nice scenarios.

Not to mention, with how speedy USEF is about doing things, the horse might have gone to another few shows before anything is brought up.

[Mcl1]

@trubandloki Well, I don’t think anyone is implying that a child doing beginner classes should have to warm up unsupervised, I think the sentiment is more directed at adults/juniors doing advanced classes who don’t even bother to look at the course without their trainer.

In the case I saw (and I am totally guessing here), I would imagine trainer told kid to go trot around while trainer was helping other kids who were actively showing and the kid just kept going until told otherwise. I don’t think it was a deliberate attempt to ride it down or anything like that.

What I was trying to get at it is that although the lowest level horses may be jumping lower, they are also often subject to (unintentional) worse handling and riding.

[Amberley]

There are horses who have competed in 70-90 individual 3’3" / 3’6" / 3’9" classes this show year, since dec 1. I’m not posting names and I’m going to ask others not to even if you know or guess. Owners are presumably following professional advice they pay a lot for and attacking one person is a tactic used to distract from the real issue. The issue is the system that allows this to happen over and over and the knee jerk pushback against every single horse welfare proposal.

You could fine people after the show but the harm is done. And the usef apparently can’t make anything stick so the current proposal is to do it via entries.

[trubandloki]

@Amberley

There are horses who have competed in 70-90 individual 3’3" / 3’6" / 3’9" classes this show year, since dec 1

Thinking about this just as numbers.
We are on week 32 of this calendar year. Add four weeks for December.
That is 36 weeks.
That works out to roughly (using your 90 number) 2.5 courses per week.
Which is only slightly more than say, two single course jump schools/lessons per week at home in training.

I would guess (I am not there) that most of these horses on this type of schedule are not also doing jumping lessons outside of what they bop over for warm-up.

Not something I would do (or could ever afford to do, because though it has been implied here, I have never been or will ever be in the millionaire category), but it does not sound near as nefarious if you compare the numbers that way.

[enjoytheride]

Not, again, arguing in any way that limits shouldn’t be set but we have, between this thread and the cost of showing thread had the following limits proposed:

number of classes entered
number of shows entered per season
number of fences jumped in the warm up
amount of time flatting in the warm up
fences jumped before the show/in the evening
amount of time flatting before the show
number of lessons people are allowed to take at home
number of jumps people are allowed to do in lessons
when we are allowed to sell or lease a horse if at all
changing the entire structure of any show that doesn’t have pre entries required

…etc

Yet none of these seem to be satisfactory to everyone as we whittle down to policing what people are allowed to do with their own horses in their backyards.

All while setting limits can be so difficult.

[Amberley]

We have very different ideas on what’s a reasonable amount of competing.

The millionaire thing is getting old- I responded to a post implying discretionary spending is not a problem by pointing out that 20% of the households in the country are in that category because it includes home equity and pensions and retirement accounts for all the adults in the house. But now two of you have taken it up in bad faith as a personal attack in a discussion about horse welfare. Nothing to be proud of. I have a lower end of average salary and always have had.

[trubandloki]

@Amberley

We have very different ideas on what’s a reasonable amount of competing.

To clarify, you are OK if a horse jumps that many jumps when not competing, just when it is that many jumps at a horse show it is bad?

[trubandloki]

@Amberley

I responded to a post implying discretionary spending is not a problem by pointing out that 20% of the households in the country are in that category because it includes home equity and pensions and retirement accounts for all the adults in the house. But now two of you have taken it up in bad faith as a personal attack in a discussion about horse welfare. Nothing to be proud of. I have a lower end of average salary and always have had.

But that is not really what you said, you said this, that is what we are responding to, pointing out that you are incorrect in this statement that “everyone” posting here fits that description.

@Amberley

I would imagine everyone posting here is a millionaire household

[Aussie_2020]

You’re talking to air, they just want to pull apart everything you say. And when you try to explain or point out issues with their posts you will be accused of being “argumentative”.

[emeraldcity]

@albytb

And stewards having the guts to say something… I sure wouldn’t

Not a HJ person here, but as someone who does a lot of ring stewarding at USDF shows, we are encouraged to get the help of the TD if we’re concerned about welfare- for any reason, including things like spending too much time working hard in warmup on a hot day. The ring steward for sure is not expected to take that on all by themselves. I don’t know anything about how officials etc works at HJ shows, but maybe this is somewhat of a culture thing that could start to come from the TDs? I have personally called out individuals to TDs that I was concerned about, they will then stick around to keep an eye and/or speak to the rider if there’s a reason to.

[Highflyer1]

You wouldn’t really have to fine people. Just make it so only the first 4 jumping classes or first 6 classes (or whatever number is decided) total count for placings, prize money and points. Then of people truly need to do another trip for experience they can do it HC.

[Peggy]

@emeraldcity

lot of ring stewarding at USDF shows, we are encouraged to get the help of the TD

At HJ shows the steward plays essentially the same role as the TD at dressage shows.