Plaid Horse Article - Class Limits

[Peggy]

Enforcing after the fact would not save the horse that breaks down at the show but it would save future horses and serve as a form of training/warning. And it should be easier to do especially if you could get the show software to cooperate. USEF gets a report of classes per horse as part of the show report or uses their software to do it, flags any horses over the limit, and goes from there. If that happens at every show people will stop. And they could start with a pilot/data gathering phase.

It’s similar to running student papers through plagiarism software. You won’t necessarily stop the student as they are plagiarizing, but you can penalize after the fact. Eventually you get a reputation as someone who takes plagiarism seriously and students will stop (or enroll in a different person’s class). It’s not a perfect analogy bc no one is physically harmed by plagiarism and the student is penalized on the paper that was plagiarized, but it’s what I could think of. And plagiarism, like overworking a horse, is nuanced—it’s been said that plagiarism is like pornography: hard to define but you know it when you see it.

[enjoytheride]

That’s my reasoning. Someone is going to jump some extra rounds because they forgot about a fine/punishment but as soon as it’s enforced and word gets out, it will stop.

It’s like when shows say you have to scratch before the end of your division and then someone ends up in the show office arguing about “just this one time.” They pay for it anyway and magically at the next show they scratch in a timely manner.

[NaturallyHappy]

@enjoytheride

It’s like when shows say you have to scratch before the end of your division and then someone ends up in the show office arguing about “just this one time.” They pay for it anyway and magically at the next show they scratch in a timely manner.

I have that T-shirt!

[neigh]

H/J shows don’t have Technical Delegates as far as I know.

[Peggy]

The role of a TD at a dressage show is essentially played by the steward at a HJ show

[dags]

But it’s an interesting thought. Instead of USEF managing the entire pool of stewards, they start assigning TDs to the shows. Stewards still employed by (and obligated to…) show management, but TD has final authority and a direct line to USEF.

[dags]

● Qualifying for Finals
Exhibitors qualify by the minimum number of points required by their home state. Riders may compete in a total of fourteen (14) Maclay qualifying classes in a single qualifying period. Any rider who continues to compete after they have competed in fourteen (14) qualifying classes will no longer be eligible to compete in the Maclay Final. (Exception: If a rider is not yet qualified for the Maclay Final after fourteen (14) classes, that rider may continue to compete until qualified. That rider must stop competing in Maclay qualifying classes as soon as they are qualified for the Maclay Final or they will no longer be eligible to compete in the Maclay Final.) It is the rider’s responsibility to calculate and know their points as well as the number of classes they have competed in.

Thought this was a worthwhile addition to this thread, specs for the next Maclay season. Found the bolded part particularly interesting. While obviously USEF is collecting data, I’m not convinced their database is in any type of shape to autonomously assist in governance. And perhaps that is something we (USEF) should invest in, but I suspect it’s not as simple (or cheap) as we (dues paying members) would hope.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@Peggy

You won’t necessarily stop the student as they are plagiarizing, but you can penalize after the fact.

How about if someone “accidentally” rides a horse in too many classes for the day and rides in all of them, their ribbons don’t count. In other words, even if you win a blue, so sorry, the second place person is now first. Plus a fine. I think the loss of the ribbons might be more of a deterrent for some riders.

I agree that every horse has a different level of work they can tolerate, but I think that’s letting perfect be the enemy of the good–having some limitations on the number is reasonable and necessary. On the other hand, I also agree that penalizing after the fact might be easier on a logistical level, and what can be enforced versus what is ideal is always preferable IMHO.

[ghst13]

I agree with this approach. Just like eligibility or cross-entry restrictions, if you “mistakenly” ride in too many classes, your placings, prize money and points are vacated. It doesn’t require changing the current add/scratch process. People probably only need to mess up once before they figure out how to keep track.

If you know you want to do your 4 over fences classes in the division and your classic on the weekend, it should be pretty easy to figure out that you can only do X classes Wed - Fri. Want to leave the option for a warmup class or derby? Leave yourself a buffer during the week.

[fivestrideline]

I like this. We already have precedent with cross-entry restrictions, and it hits where clients care the most (results).

Fines for the very rich are sometimes more like “fees”. For example, some will see that it’s a $500 fine if you park illegally, but to them it “just costs $500 to park here”. $500 may deter a lot of people, but there’s a rather large population at horse shows that would find $5000+ as pocket change.

Take away results and points, fine them, and perhaps (now or later) create an upper threshold that results in a suspension of some sort.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Yes, that’s EXACTLY what I was thinking. I can honestly see someone who was wealthy bragging that they can afford the fee (or for their kid). But if the results don’t count, and you can’t use the results to qualify, for end-of-the-year points, or to brag about the horse’s show record, it’s not much fun.

[Renn_aissance]

@dags

Thought this was a worthwhile addition to this thread, specs for the next Maclay season. Found the bolded part particularly interesting. While obviously USEF is collecting data, I’m not convinced their database is in any type of shape to autonomously assist in governance. And perhaps that is something we (USEF) should invest in, but I suspect it’s not as simple (or cheap) as we (dues paying members) would hope.

I totally agree with you on suspicion that the database needs some TLC and that this is a worthwhile thing for membership dues to pay for, but I read this differently. “Kids, it is not USEF’s job to tell you how many classes you rode in. That’s your accountability. Be told.” Since results don’t necessarily get back to the organizing body on the same day as the horse show, there are way too many factors that are out of USEF’s hands for USEF to be the final arbiter of how many classes the kid has ridden in in real time, and USEF probably doesn’t want to deal with “but you didn’t tell me I had ridden in 15 classes” when USEF simply doesn’t have the information on classes 14 and 15 until Monday morning because the show wifi went down or whatever. So, the class limit rule should be phrased the same way- it is the exhibitor’s accountability to know how many classes they’re riding in, not the horse show’s. horseshowing.com or whatever other show management system can flag this at point of entry and to the secretary when checking in, but beyond that, hopefully we all know how to count. (Us amateurs who sometimes forget this skill in the middle of the bending diagonal can use the extra practice, anyway.)

@Impractical_Horsewoman I love the idea of the penalty including “classes above the limit do not count for points.”

[Amberley]

That’s not a horse welfare rule, that is a “qualify more kids for the finals” rule.

[Hunterammy2020]

Most actually show 3 weeks on 1 week off. I’ve ridden with 2 of the top trainers in the country at WEF for circuits, and a minimum is 2 on 1 off but most are 3 on 1 off. It’s terrible to the horses tbh.

[trubandloki]

@Hunterammy2020

Most actually show 3 weeks on 1 week off. I’ve ridden with 2 of the top trainers in the country at WEF for circuits, and a minimum is 2 on 1 off but most are 3 on 1 off. It’s terrible to the horses tbh.

Then why did you do it, more than once, clearly?

[MHM]

@Hunterammy2020

Most actually show 3 weeks on 1 week off. I’ve ridden with 2 of the top trainers in the country at WEF for circuits, and a minimum is 2 on 1 off but most are 3 on 1 off. It’s terrible to the horses tbh.

That has not been my experience after decades at WEF.

Perhaps it depends a bit on the company you choose to keep.

[kenyarider]

When I had money, it was always 2 weeks show, one week off for my hunters. I doubt if I had the energy to do 3 weeks in a row!!!

[Rel6]

There is a difference between the barn being on 3 weeks and off 1, and the horses being one 3 and off 1. I know barns that may only take 1 or 2 weeks off as a barn during WEF, but the horses themselves don’t show more than 2 weeks in a row. Just depends on what clients you have coming down when, and riders with multiple mounts will rotate them.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

There’s no perfect solution.

That being said… I’d love to see the hunters get revamped at larger shows.

In a perfect world… run the adults/AO’s over 1 day (Saturday) with under saddle and limit it to 3 o/f and 1 u/s. No more 4 over-fences plus a classic round. It’s overkill. You can get away with 2 regular over fences and a handy. Make it fun for everyone, not just the A/O’s.

You want to do a classic? Great. It goes on Sunday standalone.
You want to do a derby? Great. It goes on Friday standalone.
Run the equitation on a thursday after 3pm. Just like the juniors used to have it scheduled. Low adults and adult eq, starting at 3pm on Thursday. So if that’s your jam, or if you need the warm-up, there you go. It’s a great way to have a thursday late afternoon/evening class too.
Run the international derby or welcome at 6pm. You’re bound to get more people there that will hang around after their classes to watch and grab some food/drinks.
Need your horse prepped? Super, the trainer has ticketed warmup on Tuesday and a pro day on Wednesday. Offer pro/ushja/warmup classes on thursday, but only 1 o/f per height, so there’s not a million opportunities to pound your horse. Same for friday. 1 o/f per height for a random warm-up/ushja/pro ride class. Once Saturday and Sunday hits… no warmups. You’ve got 3 shots on Saturday to get it right… or a trickier classic round on Sunday for redemption. I think it makes it more fun. It would be nice to see different courses on Sunday that just aren’t the ol’ “throw in a 9th fence” option.

[Hunterammy2020]

I did not. I’m telling you what they require. I refused but I have my own farm so I could manage myself. Nice assumption though