Pricing question

[pluvinel]

@Justice_for_Horses

You did not answer @SillyHorse question but instead went off on a discussion about what a 1st and 2nd level horse is. The question was does someone that hasn’t ridden past those levels have anything germane to say about getting to grand prix .

Ok…sorry. Let me try…Why does someone that hasn’t ridden past those levels have anything germane to say about getting to grand prix? Because a horse is a horse is a horse.

We learn that 1+1=2 in what…Like when kids are 5-6 or 1st-2nd grade? And 1+1=2 is still applicable to a theoretical math PhD.

Same with the basics of horsemanship…someone like @eightpondfarm who has been able to train a feral horse to become a civilized equine citizen can have a lot to say about how a horse goes and whether it is well ridden. Underneath that GP schoolmaster is just a basic horse.

I took my husband, whose horses are the 4-wheeled mechanical type to Dressage at Devon. We were watching the warmup and he was pointing out horses that he thought were poorly ridden and cranked in. I agreed with most of his observations.

[eightpondfarm]

@Justice_for_Horses

You did not answer @SillyHorse question but instead went off on a discussion about what a 1st and 2nd level horse is. The question was does someone that hasn’t ridden past those levels have anything germane to say about getting to grand prix .

Not to be taken personally. It’s just your basic online bs. I was reminded of another discussion i’m embroiled in (in dogs not horses) where the majority of peeps are chiding: But you aren’t doing this thing…so what can you know about our dogs. It’s a thing: gatekeeping. And i just ignore it. If i have something to say, i say it.

On here, this thread, which has (as most threads do) meandered around, i find i DO have somethings to say that are pertinent.

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

So how about 2nd level? A “schoolmaster?” The only new thing added are shoulders-in and haunches-in. Again, this is just above barely broke.

Oh dear, you forgot about collection. Hmm.

[eightpondfarm]

Not only show horses learn collection. It is a process my schooling is teaching my horses. Albeit probably waaaaay more gradually than most show horses learn.

[SillyHorse]

I don’t know why you wrote the response above. My comment was in response to pluvinel’s somewhat lacking description of what’s involved in the levels of dressage. It had nothing to do with showing or not showing.

[catzndogz22]

@Warmblood1

I’ve ridden PSG-GP horses that were exceptionally quirky and difficult and that I would not recommend as a teacher.

This reminds me of a fun dressage thread from a few months ago.

Riding Your Trainer's Upper Level Dressage Horse

I thought this video was very interesting, especially for those who think there is such a beast as a “push button” Grand Prix horse that amateurs can easily ride. I think they did very well. [I CANNOT RIDE THIS TOP DRESSAGE HORSE]

Skip to 23:00 when she gets on. Things get interesting at 34:00 when she asks for canter.

I CANNOT RIDE THIS TOP DRESSAGE HORSE

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@eightpondfarm

this thread, which has (as most threads do) meandered around, i find i DO have somethings to say that are pertinent.

Of course, you do. But this thread started with the OP’s “I love the horse I’m leasing, I want to compete at GP, this horse is more than I can reasonably afford and is not GP yet, and, I’m not showing well at 3rd. WWYD?”

To then the response (paraphrased) “you should start your own horse and bring it up the levels of you want to be a true horseman.”

To “wait a minute, that’s awesome but it may never get the OP to her stated goal for a variety of reasons not to mention the fact that it’s financially risky.”

My goal is not their goal. My journey is not their journey. We all have a different perspective and there is no reason to disparage anyone else’s point of view while acknowledging that it is not our own.

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

My comment was in response to pluvinel’s somewhat lacking description of what’s involved in the levels of dressage. It had nothing to do with showing or not showing.

Your comment describing things (eg., collection) by the terminology of some arbitrarily defined USDF 2nd-level is EXACTLY about showing…which I assume “showing” means competition… as these are the levels of competition. Yes I know it is USEF levels…but it is the same power players in both organizations.

I rode for a couple of years with a trainer from the Escuela Real of Jerez. His comment stayed with me. He said American riders can only conceive of dressage in terms of competition not of training a horse.

[SillyHorse]

Wrong. And your comment regarding what is added at second level – where did that come from? Did you make it up, or is it from (gasp) USEF’s description of the new skills for a level?

[pluvinel]

@Eclectic_Horseman

But this thread started with the OP’s “I love the horse I’m leasing, I want to compete at GP, this horse is more than I can reasonably afford and is not GP yet, and, I’m not showing well at 3rd. WWYD?”

To then the response (paraphrased) “you should start your own horse and bring it up the levels of you want to be a true horseman.”

That is NOT what the OP said was her goal (refer post #45) nor what people have suggested about starting a young horse.

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

Wrong.

This is listed as a reply to something I wrote…care to clarify?

If it is the PURPOSE…those are direct copy-paste from the USEF tests…which I linked to in my post

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

This is listed as a reply to something I wrote…care to clarify?

Sure.

@pluvinel

He said American riders can only conceive of dressage in terms of competition not of training a horse.

Total nonsense. But it’s so satisfying to put Americans down, isn’t it?

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

@pluvinel

He said American riders can only conceive of dressage in terms of competition not of training a horse.

Total nonsense.

Hey…you can talk to him…someone who is teaching GP dressage at the Real Escuela
https://www.realescuela.org/en/about-us/

@SillyHorse

But it’s so satisfying to put Americans down, isn’t it?

Getting a little defensive? Here is an emminently qualified upper level rider and that was his opinion.

[SillyHorse]

I couldn’t care less what someone thinks who thinks all Americans are the same, and also wrong.

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

I couldn’t care less what someone thinks who thinks all Americans are the same, and also wrong.

Ok…but I thought COTH required that people have “credentials” to comment on riding and riders…eg., see comments about buying the schoolmaster and criticism of @eightpondfarm . So…I thought these guys are very qualified to have their opinions since they have obviously ridden at high levels.

You are welcome your opinion…no problem.

[SillyHorse]

Tiresome, all your twisting and juggling.

[eightpondfarm]

It doesn’t matter though really … not to me.

I think what matters to OP is different than what matters to me. But so what? I have horses and i have opinions on training. I have money and i have opinions on spending. and i’m just a random internet stranger who has zero impact on OP.

[Manni01]

Ok this is a very tricky topic. I know that there are trainer and schools out there who refuse to compete…
In a way I understand why they refuse to compete but away from this remark about Americans which I think is nonsense I don’t really agree.

I have trained with American trainers and European trainers and they do have a different approach but I learned good things from both and they do have the same final goal.

And about the training without showing……
I do try to train a young horse in the moment and I finally signed up for a show for a YH 1 st level test so a friend took a video of me riding this test at home….
It was very interesting. We did many things quite well but some elements were simply missing. I do admit that I did not train those parts enough because I did not consider them important at this point but riding the test showed definitely that they were missing… so I believe competitions are a good tool to evaluate your true level of training….

[pluvinel]

@Manni01

I know that there are trainer and schools out there who refuse to compete…

Manni you may not be aware that at least 2 riders, Ignacio Rambla and Rafael Soto, from the Real Escuela competed up to Olympics.

Ignacio Rambla won a team silver medal in at the 2004 Olympics riding Oleaje
https://www.fei.org/athlete/10011375/RAMBLA-ALGARIN-Ignacio

Rafael Soto riding Invasor won 2nd place in 2004 Olympics team competition
https://www.fei.org/athlete/10011381

[Eclectic_Horseman]

You are correct in that I missed that the poster in #45 was the OP. It is highly relevant that OP is not a beginner rider, but that she comes from hunterland.

My point still stands not everyone is in a position to bring along a young horse in dressage, and not everyone wants to. Just like not everyone is in a position to buy and compete a GP horse, and not everyone wants to. And for those who do, there are many roads to Rome.