Pricing question

[pluvinel]

[quote=“SillyHorse, post:155, topic:796740, full:true”]

@pluvinel

@SillyHorse

You are so new to dressage that I doubt you really understand the subject of this thread
[/quote]

Wow. This attitude is how DQ’s get called dressage queens.

Well, explain to me how someone with very limited experience in dressage, maybe doing some first level work and who has never ridden even a second level schoolmaster, has anything germane to say about getting to GP. I’d like to hear it.

Since I obviously haven’t gotten the multi-quote thing… to clarify for anyone as to who is saying what, my post quoted was in response to @SillyHorse 's reply to a post by @eightpondfarm

You said “You’d like to hear it”…so here it is…my OPINION.

First level is what I call “the barely broke level.” What is required? Walk. Trot. Canter. Stop. Go. Turn. Steer. Stand still…aka - “Halt.” Seems like the kindergarten basics required of any riding horse.

So how about 2nd level? A “schoolmaster?” The only new thing added are shoulders-in and haunches-in. Again, this is just above barely broke. The SI and HI require that the horse and rider are able to communicate to control the shoulders and the haunches. Useful in opening gates. Again, I consider this the basics of what a horse needs to know to be a riding horse. Maybe we are up to 1st Grade.

I will admit that I am probably in the minority. I will also embrace that I am also a dressage dinosaur. I learned to ride in the Dark Ages with an old cavalry colonel, an immigrant who was his country’s former FEI delegate. In his words, “Dressage starts at Prix St. George.”

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@pluvinel

First level is what I call “the barely broke level.” What is required? Walk. Trot. Canter. Stop. Go. Turn. Steer. Stand still…aka - “Halt.” Seems like the kindergarten basics required of any riding horse.

I think that you are describing Introductory or, with the addition of canter, Training Level. First Level requires more thrust and engagement and more consistent contact. There are also more movements such as leg yields, lengthening the stride and halt from the trot.

[Badger]

@pluvinel

So how about 2nd level? A “schoolmaster?” The only new thing added are shoulders-in and haunches-in. Again, this is just above barely broke.

Second level requires the beginning of collection and is a great dividing line in the dressage journey as so many riders never figure it out. There is a huge chasm between first and confirmed at second level. The lateral exercises you mention, properly executed, are collecting exercises. That is far from barely above broke if they are effective at shifting the weight onto the hindquarters.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@Badger

a great dividing line in the dressage journey as so many riders never figure it out.

Many horses without correct conformation for dressage are also unable to become confirmed at 2nd level.

[pluvinel]

@Badger

Second level requires the beginning of collection and is a great dividing line in the dressage journey as so many riders never figure it out. There is a huge chasm between first and confirmed at second level. The lateral exercises you mention, properly executed, are collecting exercises.

@Eclectic_Horseman

Many horses without correct conformation for dressage are also unable to become confirmed at 2nd level.

You guys have your standards calibrated strangely if you think getting a horse to do a proper SI or HP is such a great accomplishment. The instructors that I have had (most now all passed away) considered these movements as very basic exercises in training of the horse.

There is no way that any “normally configured” horse (eg., no clinical abnormalities or pathologies) cannot do a SI or HP.

The statement “Second level requires the beginning of collection…” is just boilerplate USDF verbiage BS.

[pluvinel]

@Eclectic_Horseman

First Level requires more thrust and engagement and more consistent contact. There are also more movements such as leg yields, lengthening the stride and halt from the trot.

From the USEF…

First Level Test 1 - Requires no LY
PURPOSE

To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and in addition to the requirements of Training Level, has developed improved balance, lateral suppleness and throughness, as well as the thrust to perform lengthenings of stride. The horse should be on the bit.

Finally…in First Level Test 3, do you have a LY. Again, this is barely broke in my book in order to be able to adjust and move a horse.

PURPOSE

To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and in addition to the requirements of Training Level, has developed improved balance, lateral suppleness and throughness, as well as the thrust to perform lengthenings of strides. The horse should be on the bit

[Knights_Mom]

I wonder how much the insurance is on a $250,000 horse?

[Manni01]

I am not sure whether you are really right with your assessment that doing leg yield means the horse is barely broke…

Sure most movements are easy for a horse to learn if you introduce them properly but when starting a horse, there are many many things for a young horse to learn…. And better. believe things can go wrong too even if you think everything is going super….

I would say learning the passage and even a piaffe is easy for most horses to learn if you introduce it properly ( Anja Beran agrees on that ). It is different to do Piaffe and passage simply at a moment when everything is feeling good, Or do it in a GP test at a specific place even if your horse doesn’t feel good at that time…
Same with all the other movements…. It’s not about simply doing the movements but doing them in a context…

[Eclectic_Horseman]

Well, then. Call USDF and tell them to get rid of Introductory Level and Training Level.

[pluvinel]

@Knights_Mom

I wonder how much the insurance is on a $250,000 horse?

Depends on what you are insuring.

[pluvinel]

@Eclectic_Horseman

Well, then. Call USDF and tell them to get rid of Introductory Level and Training Level.

Why? The lower level tests are there to provide steps along the road to upper level competition. They can be used for riders to progress or for inexperienced horses to become used to the show environment.

What I take objection to is this whole “second level is the start of collection” thing. The same way that a human may never reach Olympic competition level gymnastic or athletic performance, a human can participate in foot races or in weight lifting, etc. for sport. In all cases serious athletes try to maintain proper form and technique. Same for a horse.

Second level introduces 2 new movements to ask for the horse to perform IN COMPETITION. Those movements should have been introduced way back in time from training from when the horse was first backed. The same way one teaches a horse forward, back, left and right, one starts to teach a horse “move your shoulders” and “move your haunches.”

I am saying that SI and HI are the equivalent of the lower levels of human grammar school for the horse.

[Bearx2]

@Caligirl83

In the end, we’re all just strangers on the internet giving our perspectives from our experiences and those of the people in our circle. Which makes COTH such a neat forum to learn from.

I think this is a great point. You made some very good and valid points based on your life experience, which just happens to be completely opposite of mine. The great thing about having such a wide range of view points is that people can pick and choose which views work for them .

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@pluvinel

I am saying that SI and HI are the equivalent of the lower levels of human grammar school for the horse.

There’s a difference between doing these things badly and doing these things correctly. Young horses (excepting perhaps purpose bred WBs, and even then…) generally do not have the strength behind to do these things correctly.

Competition is to confirm correct movement.

[poltroon]

@pluvinel

You guys have your standards calibrated strangely if you think getting a horse to do a proper SI or HP is such a great accomplishment. The instructors that I have had (most now all passed away) considered these movements as very basic exercises in training of the horse.

There is no way that any “normally configured” horse (eg., no clinical abnormalities or pathologies) cannot do a SI or HP.

The statement “Second level requires the beginning of collection…” is just boilerplate USDF verbiage BS.

Any sound horse can learn to do a shoulder in or haunches-in, I agree, and it is part of basic training.

Many horses can do it well when asked just at the right time.

Even my old arthritic OTTB hunter could do them for me as a teenager, given the right circumstances, though probably only for a 5 in retrospect.

Few horses and riders can do those movements for a 7-8 consistently in the context of a test. (These are exactly the stats you collected once upon a time, are they not?)

[GraceLikeRain]

@pluvinel

You guys have your standards calibrated strangely if you think getting a horse to do a proper SI or HP is such a great accomplishment. The instructors that I have had (most now all passed away) considered these movements as very basic exercises in training of the horse.

It feels like a both/and to me.

For a skilled balanced rider and a clean slate horse, this stuff are the very basics. Simple vs easy.

Just visit the how to ride a shoulder in thread to see how difficult it can be to translate feel and timing to another person. Many of us bring baggage, imbalance, tension, etc and then are trying to find harmony on an unbalanced horse that may have had conflicting training or other barriers.

If a person can perfectly time their aids and the horse responds as expected, it’s simple. When you introduce the reality most of us face, it isn’t easy.

The OP is struggling to understand how to ride a SI on a FEI horse in full training. The simple stuff isn’t easy for a lot of us, and that’s totally okay. It’s a great reminder that the recommendation of bringing along a green horse even with outside help can be a really tenuous path for many.

[pluvinel]

@GraceLikeRain

It feels like a both/and to me.

Agree

@GraceLikeRain

For a skilled balanced rider and a clean slate horse, this stuff are the very basics. Simple vs easy.

Agree

@GraceLikeRain

Just visit the how to ride a shoulder in thread to see how difficult it can be to translate feel and timing to another person. Many of us bring baggage, imbalance, tension, etc and then are trying to find harmony on an unbalanced horse that may have had conflicting training or other barriers.

If a person can perfectly time their aids and the horse responds as expected, it’s simple. When you introduce the reality most of us face, it isn’t easy.

And this is where the horse can teach the rider. It does not have to be a GP schoolmaster. The youngest, least trained horse can teach a rider…if the rider is willing to listen to the horse. The horse with the least training is a blank slate as you said above. If a rider “asks” for something, the horse will try to interpret and offer “something”…like “Is this what you want?” It then falls on the rider to reflect and analyze…and try again. This is where a rider becomes a horseman.

Now here is the part about the horse teaching the rider…the rider has to have to humility to be willing to listen and learn from the horse. The rider has to be willing to ask themself “What did I just do?” “How did the horse respond?” “Am I holding tension?”…etc. The rider has to seek “cause and effect.” As in Rider Does X----Horse Responds Y.

I am sure everyone on this board knows a rider who blames their horse for everything and who are blind to their own lack of awareness and feel. AND…who will argue with you if you should have the impertinence to try to suggest something.

@GraceLikeRain

The OP is struggling to understand how to ride a SI on a FEI horse in full training. The simple stuff isn’t easy for a lot of us, and that’s totally okay. It’s a great reminder that the recommendation of bringing along a green horse even with outside help can be a really tenuous path for many.

This is where the young horse can offer some teaching. Sometimes the young horses are more “reactive” than the “been there done that” horse. Those horse can hold a mirror to the rider and offer an opinion about the rider’s aids.

I have had the opportunity to work with a horse that came out of an Olympian’s farm. It had a mouth like a cinderblock. So in my book, depending on the horse and the training it came out of, the “schoolmaster” may actually teach the rider incorrect things…from my POV.

Disclaimer…I like a “hot” horse. Light to the hand and reactive to the seat and aids.

[eightpondfarm]

Thank you.

[Bearx2]

@pluvinel

Now here is the part about the horse teaching the rider…the rider has to have to humility to be willing to listen and learn from the horse. The rider has to be willing to ask themself “What did I just do?” “How did the horse respond?” “Am I holding tension?”…etc. The rider has to seek “cause and effect.” As in Rider Does X----Horse Responds Y.

I am sure everyone on this board knows a rider who blames their horse for everything and who are blind to their own lack of awareness and feel. AND…who will argue with you if you should have the impertinence to try to suggest something.

I think it’s important to remember that a big park of riding a school master is that the rider still has to learn to all “the buttons” and for many people learning on upper levels horses that can be extremely hard . I was lucky enough to sit on a Grand Prix school master once , I had a really hard time getting him to trot because I did not know how to ask him .

[Justice_for_Horses]

@pluvinel You did not answer @SillyHorse question but instead went off on a discussion about what a 1st and 2nd level horse is. The question was does someone that hasn’t ridden past those levels have anything germane to say about getting to grand prix .

[Warmblood1]

@pluvinel

I have had the opportunity to work with a horse that came out of an Olympian’s farm. It had a mouth like a cinderblock. So in my book, depending on the horse and the training it came out of, the “schoolmaster” may actually teach the rider incorrect things…from my POV.

Agree. I’ve ridden PSG-GP horses that were exceptionally quirky and difficult and that I would not recommend as a teacher.

No one is asking but IMO, OP does not need a 250k internationally competitive horse to become a competent or even competitive rider. OP is operating at about 1st-2nd level (which is wonderful). But OP is not going to be able to compete a PSG or GP horse any time soon, even if they had the horse available. I am not knocking OP’s riding level AT ALL. I think their path is wonderful. But I also know that many of us make decisions about horses based on emotional motivation. OP should not take the risk financially on a 250k horse unless they can sacrifice 250k painlessly. Especially not when their are other paths to Rome that are much financially safer.