Pricing question

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@eightpondfarm

Again, totally different from this topic and OP’s question. But a legitimate approach to horsemanship.

I completely agree. But if you do have a goal that includes riding at GP, and you can afford it, then the least risky way to do it is not to start with a youngster. That’s a legitimate approach, too. The OP didn’t say why she has this goal, but I can think of a lot of scenarios in which this might be the best approach.

@eightpondfarm

For the record, I would not take out a loan for a 12 year old horse no matter what i felt would be gained by getting a leg-up to my goal. What i think i’d do is get aboard as many UL horses as i could and get as many feels as i could. Then, armed with the combined experience i’d find a horse i could buy with cash and haul to the best trainers/coaches i could get to until i found one who spoke to me in a way i could really totally understand…and i’d plant me and my horse there, with him/her for as long as i could afford it/as many times as i could afford it until i outgrew that coach.

I wouldn’t take out a loan for any horse. I am too financially risk-averse. But I agree with riding as many UL horses as possible and getting the best trainers/ coaches that you can. Again, depending on your goal.

[SillyHorse]

@eightpondfarm

So, for me, there’s no such thing as a long time. Time isn’t running out. Time is what is happening while i am enjoying the things i do. Nowdays it’s with raw horses. I do not want a shortcut, i want to take it the long way.

You do not have the same goal as the OP. You are so new to dressage that I doubt you really understand the subject of this thread.

[eightpondfarm]

welllll about your comment about me…actually, i think the actual ‘problem’ with me is i don’t align with competition. Dressage… i am actively learning.

and i’m saying that if OP wants to learn from a successfully campaigned show horse maybe spreading out and trying her seat on multiple horses trained to her goal level…or nearly. Why put all your eggs in one basket? So much can be gleaned from riding multiple different horses. And maaaaybe, just maybe there is another coach out there who might also help her find her way toward that goal on a horse that isn’t going to cost her a quarter of a million dollars …that she doesn’t have.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@eightpondfarm

So much can be gleaned from riding multiple different horses.

Good luck with that in the USA though. There just aren’t many of them, those that there are aren’t available, or they are half way across the country. If going to Europe is an option, it might be worth it.

[GraceLikeRain]

@eightpondfarm

Well perhaps you’re right. But i think i disagree. Horses started at age 4 aren’t ready for at least three years for the more joint-straining, joint-degenerating movements are they? Lots of prep and body building as well as response to ever more subtle aids can get accomplished in those three years.

What’s the point of a three year reference? A horse started by an ammy at four in full training will likely be a first or second level horse in three years. An AA who has more experience may have a horse playing at third level. Grand Prix is still close to a decade out for most amateurs trying to produce their own for the first time. By mid to late teens many horses have arthritis changes, even ones who have sat in a field their whole lives.

[eightpondfarm]

horses are physically mature at seven is the three year reference.

[poltroon]

This thread has become a bit of a train wreck, and my apologies to the OP.

I love working with young and green horses and have done it quite a bit. But you know, my riding, my tact, my skill improved dramatically when I bought a schoolmaster, the horse that would reward me for doing it right.

When I’ve gotten on green horses since then, it is easy to get them round and comfortable and fluent in a way that younger me who knew only raw horses never could.

For most amateurs, and especially in dressage, we only have access to one horse at a time, and it’s usually a horse we own. We don’t have the time to ride multiple horses daily even if we had access to them. In the US we rarely have schoolmaster lesson horses or even the chance to hop on another rider’s horse.

I was never so humbled as the day when my trainer put me up on her FEI horse. It was a great perk for me but also it was her chance to see if she might be able to sell him as an amateur horse. I only had a handful of lessons on him but I learned so much about how challenging it was to ride this very hot and reactive horse especially if you just wanted to trot down the long side straight.

To become a capable, kind rider, you need those schoolmasters in your life somehow. I wish I could have do-overs on those young OTTBs I was entrusted with.

Anyway: Potential is expensive. Good teaching from both horse and human is harder to come by than it should be. The first six months with a horse is usually What Have I Done? as you build a partnership. Expensive horses create some bad emotions when things don’t go well (the horse does not know what he cost you). Horse shopping is hard.

[Bearx2]

@pluvinel

I would NEVER pay more for a horse than I have ever paid for a truck…or even a house. I have a queen’s taste on a pauper’s wallet, so I buy young horses (long-yearlings to 2 yr olds) and break them to ride. Those horses, and good teachers, have taught me more about horsemanship, than a “trained” horse could ever possibly teach.

A friend of mine called doing that getting a trained horse on a payment plan. She explained to me that you could shell out all the money all at once and get something trained or you could get something younger ( and often times cheaper ) and spend the money getting good training on it. She often when with the second option because she would know exactly the type of training / life experience the horse had .

[pluvinel]

@Bearx2

A friend of mine called doing that getting a trained horse on a payment plan. She explained to me that you could shell out all the money all at once and get something trained or you could get something younger ( and often times cheaper ) and spend the money getting good training on it. She often when with the second option because she would know exactly the type of training / life experience the horse had .

Your friend is cut from the same cloth as me. Totally agree with your friend’s philosophy.

[pluvinel]

@lazaret

Well, if I were the OP, I’d sure have run screaming from this thread now that everyone has told me I’m a cheater and a bad rider who doesn’t respect her horses.

Whaaaaaa??? This is BS…

Or maybe you are projecting if you think this is what is being said.

[pluvinel]

@Caligirl83

And I don’t think it’s right to imply (not sure if that’s what you’re saying so forgive me if I read too much into your words) that the only way to be a true horseman or rider is to develop young horses through the levels.

I am saying that one learns DIFFERENT THINGS by having to deal with challenges that a young or untrained horse presents. And this learning broadens one’s repertoire of skills.

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

You are so new to dressage that I doubt you really understand the subject of this thread

Wow. This attitude is how DQ’s get called dressage queens.

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

@SillyHorse

You are so new to dressage that I doubt you really understand the subject of this thread

Wow. This attitude is how DQ’s get called dressage queens.

Well, explain to me how someone with very limited experience in dressage, maybe doing some first level work and who has never ridden even a second level schoolmaster, has anything germane to say about getting to GP. I’d like to hear it.

[outerbanks77]

@Bearx2

A friend of mine called doing that getting a trained horse on a payment plan. She explained to me that you could shell out all the money all at once and get something trained or you could get something younger ( and often times cheaper ) and spend the money getting good training on it. She often when with the second option because she would know exactly the type of training / life experience the horse had .

The other side of the coin is - if you spend $$$ on a horse that is way above your level, you need to pay for training to keep it tuned. Otherwise it will come down to your level and lose value. Yes, the upper level training is still “in there” but value lost. That hit home to me when someone mentioned that a six-figure horse languishing in a first level rider’s pasture was never going to resell for what the rider paid for it.

There are so many options for the OP between freshly backed three year old and FEI schoolmaster. I think something in between would be good, like a third level horse that she feels safe on, can purchase without a loan, and that can be developed with help of a trainer as she progresses.

[Cowgirl]

I totally agree. There is also a growth and emotional aspect to keeping things slowed down at first, the classical way. When my young horses go through a growth spurt, they often lose their balance again. And they go through things (like tooth cutting) that is painful and makes them emotional. And they have to have experiences to get confidence.

[Warmblood1]

@aa1977

However his training is $2k/month on top of his boarding which is $1.5k, so this is quickly becoming a commitment that will absorb every bit of my income and require loans for a few years to absorb his price tag!

OP, for this reason I say absolutely not. Unless you can light 250k on fire and not flinch, please don’t do it. I’m sure your trainer is exceptionally nice and the horse is a unicorn, but horses are a serious financial risk and you should count on worst case scenario when buying a horse. A catastrophic event could require your horse to be euthanized one day after purchase.

I think continuing to ride a schoolmaster is an excellent idea - this doesn’t have to be an internationally competitive horse priced at 250k. With you at around 1st-2nd level proficiency, you could learn a great deal from an older 4th level plus school master that is priced much more affordably.

[Bearx2]

@Caligirl83

@pluvinel You make great points about horsemanship and learning via training young horses, and I get it because that’s my forte too - bringing along & developing young horses and I love it.

However, young horses are just not for everyone. Full stop.

And I don’t think it’s right to imply (not sure if that’s what you’re saying so forgive me if I read too much into your words) that the only way to be a true horseman or rider is to develop young horses through the levels. The reality is everybody is on their own horse journey, and I think it’s cool that there are so many ways to enjoy and ride horses. It’s not right to judge others for their competition goals that don’t include developing a young horse. They have just as much as a right to be in this sport as the young horse riders.

Frankly, the risk involved (financially and risks to the rider’s physical body & mental health/self confidence) is pretty high when developing young horses, especially if you were never the kind of scrappy rider that got on everything and anything as a kid. Even adult re-riders who used to ride the problem horses and young horses when they were kids and then when they have the $ try to recreate that with adult aging & less fit bodies, confidence issues, and other responsibilities (ie worrying about what would happen to their kid or non horse job if they got hurt on a young horse)… this can set both the young horse and the owner/rider up for failure. And if you are aiming for Grand Prix and you’re over 40 and you’ve never ever sat on young horses or problem horses, there is absolutely no reason to start!

This is coming from a place of watching several friends get really hurt when they bought a young horse that ultimately was the wrong horse for them, when what they really needed was a schoolmaster to have fun with and meet bucket dream goals both in and out of the show arena.

My two cents.

While I agree with you that young horses are not for everyone I have to admit this post turned me off just a little . You are right when you say that everyone is on their own horse journey and the journey is different for everyone. Saying someone should or shouldn’t do something just based on age and prior experience comes across as just a bit condescending. I know plenty of 40 something amateurs that could safely start (and have started ) horses from the ground up by themselves. I also know someone who decided based on her current life style to send her young horse to a pro to get started. It up to the individual to decide what course is right for them .

[Caligirl83]

@Bearx2

While I agree with you that young horses are not for everyone I have to admit this post turned me off just a little . You are right when you say that everyone is on their own horse journey and the journey is different for everyone. Saying someone should or shouldn’t do something just based on age and prior experience comes across as just a bit condescending. I know plenty of 40 something amateurs that could safely start (and have started ) horses from the ground up by themselves. I also know someone who decided based on her current life style to send her young horse to a pro to get started. It up to the individual to decide what course is right for them .

@Bearx2 I hear you and good point, everybody should decide for themselves about their own horse journey. I’m not some mighty fountain of knowledge and apologize if my post came across that way… I was reacting to another post up thread that seemed to imply that the path to Grand Prix should involve riding young horses, which I felt was not the right advice for the OP.

But I shouldn’t have put a random cutoff like age 40 (as I know a lady in her 70s that still starts her own colts, but she’s been starting colts since she was a pre-teenager). And actually the most recent friend with the horrible self confidence issues and broken pelvis due to her young horse is in her 20s.

Like I said in my original post, the thing I find the coolest about horses and horse sports is everybody is on their own journey and there are many different paths to the same goals (but there are some paths that are more/less financially risky and more/less risky to one’s physical health & self confidence).

In the end, we’re all just strangers on the internet giving our perspectives from our experiences and those of the people in our circle. Which makes COTH such a neat forum to learn from.

[shall]

@Manni01

If the person who buys and trains a young horse all the way does it well, I am sorry to disagree, she is a better horse person….
A person who simply buys a finished horse saves a lot of time to reach his goals but by saving this time he misses out to be a better horse person…

There’s a lot of sense here. Dressage mastery involves back to basics all the time. Polishing there for improvement at the higher levels.

[4wdNstraight]

Agree Cowgirl. I would also go so far to say it’s why the US as a country is not at the top of the sport. If you look at at the rider trainers who win, they all train them from the beginning. The US has a deficit of FEI trainers who can bring horses up from start to GP. I’m not suggesting they back them themselves, but we need to be able to reliably produce our own top horses.

I also agree with Cowgirl on an incentives for those who choose to train their own. I always have, and it is much harder than buying your training. I don’t have sour grapes about it either. I recently could afford to buy more training, but after riding much of the “training” in my budget, I went for a green horse again who had been started but a clean slate. The trained horses all had holes that would likely take a long time to fix, and I know what I could to do in less time on a horse with no problems.

That said, most people don’t have the skills to do it, and it is absolutely the slowest way to progress. If I had my way, I would have bought a 3rd level or one at least starting the changes and go from there. But to find and buy that with quality training, good in the contact and through the back with age/ability to do FEI, well they aren’t falling out of trees, an if the exist, they are very expensive.

I think the OP should have no trouble finding a great schoolmaster in a six figure budget who can teach her and be a great partner. There is no badge of honor that you get for bringing them up yourself, and if you have limited time and good resources, why not?!