So competition is important? Make up your mind!
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Manni said
I showed that there are at least 2 riders from the Real Escueal who compete. I made no statement on whether competition is important.
That is all.
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Who? .
We are dealing with a lady at our barn that did just this. Older lady, health issues, not fit or super balanced, comes off pretty easily. On her horse search, she ignored all the horses that trainers told her would be a good fit, and went and bought a big green 4 year old Oldenburg with shivers, huge gaits, that had only been ridden in an enclosed arena with no windows. Shockingly, after the two years she has had him, she has fallen off countless times, been seriously injured at least twice, and the horse has made little to no actual progress. And the horse really hasn’t done anything outside typical baby stuff, she just cant sit anything he does. There’s much more to the story, but basically it’s a horrid fit, she should never have gotten this horse, but she won’t listen to anyone that she needs to sell him and get a horse that’s a better fit. It’s at the point no one wants to help her with him anymore.
It’s scary watching friends insist on trying to get themselves killed all because they had stars in their eyes of bringing along a fancy horse. Not everyone is suited or capable or bringing along a young horse. If you can, it’s a great learning experience, but there’s a reason many trainers have people they send their youngsters off to for proper starting. It’s a very different skillset.
Anyways…
OP, if I were in your situation, I think I would tell trainer my top price I’d be willing to pay (which should really be like 75 to 80% of what your actual top price is, remember you need to do PPE as well), but not be too worried if they won’t accept it. Continue leasing if you can, it’s a great opportunity, until horse DOES sell. It could very well be a long, long time. Could also inquire about lease to own as another possibility.
As much as you love this horse, I can guarantee another WILL come along if it doesn’t just work out. Don’t try to force it to happen.
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Pluvinel, I think part of why this post has generated so much debate is perhaps due to cultural/generational differences.
I grew up overseas, learning to ride from older European instructors. When I moved to the US, it was very clear that the standards for riding were very different. In Europe, if you were a “good” rider, it meant you could easily and safely go for a trail ride that consists of galloping through the woods for an hour or more, as well as safely jump 3+ feet (since < 3 ft was considered “small” or introductory sized fences), you had a well-balanced, unobtrusive seat that could adjust the horse’s gaits with tact and precision, and you knew how to gymnasticize a horse with lateral work, transitions within the gaits, etc. - a good rider could actively develop a horse, not just ride it.
In the US, I saw many self-labelled “good” riders who could barely canter, and certainly were not balanced, and were often bouncing on the horse’s back and catching them in the mouth. The cultural differences between the standards of competence were stark. Now, the circles I run in today would certainly have a higher standard, but probably not by much. Most riders can’t sit a medium trot or ride a change, much less gymnasticize a horse effectively. No shame in that - everyone is on their own journey - but its helpful to be honest about where we are on the spectrum.
In Europe (at least, the countries where I rode), I found that generally speaking, dressage does start at Prix St George. Everything below is just called training that every horse should have, regardless of their discipline. Once they started PSG, then they were a specialized “dressage horse.”
(I do wonder how much of this has changed over the years - my experience was from almost 30 years ago.)
All that to say, I don’t know that that semantics are worth arguing over (surely, they aren’t), but wanted to reaffirm that you are not alone - many others have at one point (if not still today) agreed with your perspective!
Personally, I don’t want to argue semantics (and will probably not respond to comments), but I agree that a First level horse is really at the beginning of its education. If you consider the origins of dressage - the development of a military weapon to be used on the battle field - such a horse is hardly useful on a battle field, beyond a blind gallop at the enemy! Second level collection is similarly just the beginning - tiny, fleeting moments of collection, but again, not a particularly maneuverable horse to keep you safe in battle.
I think we can all agree, though, that the training of any horse in “dressage” as we know it today is good for them, regardless of what discipline they later pursue (obviously I mean correct training, and I don’t mean disciplines like western pleasure, etc.).
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Thank you!!!
I learned in the US, but from all the expat cavalry that came to US post WW-II. One of the exercises was jumping a bounce grid with no reins…or having 2 riders approach a vertical and hand a baton to the other.
Here is an example from US Cavalry training video from ~1945. This was expected from raw recruits who were new to riding…so I don’t think my expectations are out of line…maybe out of line for today’s rider, but these are the expectations my riding teachers were raised with and where I learned mine.
https://youtu.be/mXbhvwPb11k
Well, thank you again. Never thought of the generational or cultural POV. As I said earlier, I really feel like a neanderthal with the responses my comments have elicited. My experience dates to back ~52 years ago, so it is nice to hear your perspective.
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This is a whole 'nother situation than OP. This is a clueless rider who can’t be told anything. As the old adage goes, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him/her drink.”
I agree there are those people out there, but this situation does not seem to reflect OP’s stated level of experience, willingness to listen to trainers, and open-mindedness about alternatives.
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I was responding to someone else’s comment about something else, not related to OP. That’s why I then said “anyways” and then addressed OP.
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I understand you were replying to @Caligirl83. My point is that there are people out there who are driving beyond their headlights and are unwilling to listen to well-intentioned help.
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That reminds me - once, in France, the older kids (i.e., not me) had to do an exercise where they took off their girths (!) and had to walk, trot, canter, and pop over a small jump! And while this was many years ago, so memory is a bit fuzzy, it wasn’t a small cross rail - it had to have been at 2.5 feet (which isn’t all that big, until you remember you don’t have a girth!). Everyone did great except one poor young woman whose horse did not care for the saddle moving so much and gave a small buck after each fence, which (of course), sent her flying. The instructor let her stop after the second or third fall 
Imagine that at a riding school in the US!
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Somewhere on the internet there is a video of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police doing an exhibition ride and they did exactly this exercise!
I have been googling youtube but can’t find it…I swear I saw it. The riders took the girth off while mounted then continued with their ride.
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Yikes. I’m fine with bareback and have done all kinds of shenanigans bareback - jumping grids, bridleless, etc. But a saddle with a loose girth is dangerous and whether the saddle stays in place probably has as much or more to do with the shape of the horse’s back and the friction coefficient of the saddle pad than the balance of the rider.
Honestly it’s also probably the most dangerous way to fall (after a dirty stop headfirst).
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Great post and a reminder that three people can say “Apple” and be referring to an apple tree, single Apple, or bushel of apples. No apple is wrong but when you start comparing them people can get confused or defensive about the right apple and how the apple can be explained.
I would have loved to grow up in the European model of 30-50 years ago. I probably rode for a decade before I even had an opportunity to canter a horse in a field, much less gallop through the woods. Different access to horse country, instruction, teaching methodology, etc.
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Then there is the Apple computer…which is what I first thought of.
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I don’t imagine you would see that exercise anywhere in a riding school in Europe either, nowadays.
I learned to ride as a kid in Europe more than 50 years ago. I certainly remember learning to jump through a grid with no reins and my arms stretched out to the sides, with my eyes closed. And a lot of bareback and riding out in the woods and fields–basically feral.
I’m a risk-averse older lady now. I’m glad I did it, but I don’t feel the need to do it again!
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For those who are interested…here is the Metropolitan Mounted Police at the 2017 Olympia Intl. Horse Show…exhibition where they remove the saddle WHILE RIDING and then take a jumping grid carrying their saddles. Go to the 3:00 mark to see them remove saddles
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Although there are riders who aren’t that experienced really, the US has a lot of riders who can walk the walk. I grew up in an equestrian dead zone but did bounce as a teen, jumped bareback for fun, raced bareback on the trails, showed ride a buck classes and often won. I’ve done all sorts of things riding. And I’m average as far as experiences. So I dispute that there is no skill among us yanks.
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Yep - I grew up doing the same, in the US, 15-20 years ago. These days it’s only the friends with their own farms or who work cattle for a living that have their children running a bit wild (and learning balance and stick that way). However, the better programs DO teach the no-hands grids, lunge line lessons, fun days riding bareback (supervised), and take riders to XC and dressage clinics and trail rides. These are (gasp!) successful hunter programs, to be clear.
The “good old days” certainly weren’t all good, and definitely not entirely better than today. And you can’t generalize across huge populations and land masses. Things change over time, and while we are certainly seeing a loss of land access and access to horses in general over here, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows across the pond either.
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If you must borrow money in order to purchase this horse, the answer is Fugedaboutit!
Many of the previous comments are great explanations as to why not buy this horse. Many a lovely expensive horse has been bought by an ammie, and ends up making a nice ride for the trainer.
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More PSG horses don’t make it to GP than do, so no, there is no guarantee.
Don’t go into debt to buy a horse. There’s plenty of 3rd and PSG schoolmasters out there that will make you just as happy as the guy you’re leasing for a fraction of the price.
Rather than counter-offering the $250k, just say “sorry, my budget is in the $xx - $xx range, ideally staying under $xx” when approached about the horse. Be honest and realistic about your budget and if your trainer gets pushy, that’s a red flag.
I also find it strange a GP prospect with a potential $250k price tag is being leased out to someone who isn’t even solid 3rd level (no hate for not being a 3rd level rider, I’m not one either).
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