The guy sounds like a complete &!$%£*&
Anyone who feels they have to hit an animal to train it has serious issues themselves. He should be reported to animal welfare.
Hopefully these kinds of threads encourage his audience to look at the training methods from a different perspective, and question his methodology a little bit more – and recognize the contempt he has for much of his audience, and the horses he trains!
Hi COTHers - Donnie Steele from SmartPak here to chime in. Many thanks to the OP for sending me a note and raising the issue. I’ll start by saying that as always, I welcome any and all feedback and am happy to have it sent directly to me at dsteele@smartpak.com. As a group, you’re loyal SmartPak customers and passionate horse owners, and I’m always ALWAYS interested in hearing your feedback.
On to the topic at hand… As a bit of background, we live for healthy horses and happy riders. Not only is it a wonderfully simple brand position, it’s also the lens we use to make key business decisions every day. When we think about the notion of “healthy horses,” it starts with education around what a sound, individualized nutritional program looks like for a horse. It’s a concept that a great many horse owners need more information on, and we try very hard to bring our message to horse owners all over the country – often to unlikely places. We simply go where the horses are. Admittedly, that mindset got us to Downunder Horsemanship, which observing from the outside, drew many riders – riders that were committed to improving their horsemanship skills and looking for guidance on how to do so.
While I’m passionate about bringing the SmartPak story everywhere horse owners gather, there is in fact a limit. As you can imagine, this relationship is governed by an agreement that is filled with obligations, expectations and timelines. I’m probably at my limit of what is reasonable to discuss in a public forum, but I personally (this is solely my POV) am concerned and disappointed in the feedback I’m hearing coming back from the tour stop. This will be addressed.
alfonsina, I’m sorry you received a less detailed response from our Customer Care team. While they are exceptional and completely at liberty to solve customer issues on their own, they are simply unable to provide deep insight on business issues. However, as is always the case, they capture the feedback and it gets elevated (or lowered as the case may be, I sit 30 steps below our Customer Care team).
Again, thank you guys for the feedback and raising the issue with me. Hopefully, we’ve built enough of a track record at addressing the issues that you raise to have sufficient credibility when I say that we will deal with this.
Donnie Steele
dsteele@smartpak.com
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8200242]
Anderson, Parelli, John Lyons, Monty Roberts, and others of their ilk are the 21st century answer to olde-tyme “medicine shows” or travelling rodeo cowboys who can “ride what you can’t ride.” should be dismissed out of hand."[/QUOTE]
I would NOT lump John Lyons in with that bunch. Having attended sessions with all of them multiple times, and having follow John Lyons closely for at least ten years, I can tell you that his methods are nothing like the others, nor are his actions. Roberts picks the easiest horses to work with in his clinics so that his gimmicks work Parelli puts people into dangerous situations to make himself look good, and from what the OP described, Anderson has no class and has resorted to using more force with horses. Lyons did none of those things.
[QUOTE=BEARCAT;8202171]
Have to agree that I would not lump John Lyons with the above mentioned trainers. I have first hand experience with several of them, and although I am sure he could have his bad days, I have found him calm and compassionate with the horses. I also appreciated that he was willing to change and admit that some of the methods he used back in the day, he would no longer use at this point in his life with horses.[/QUOTE]
That may be, but the fact remains that those “round-pen chasing” techniques can turn things really south when the AA owners try them. My old event horse before I bought him had been trained by JL’s methods (proudly announced by former owner) which in his case taught him he could charge and chase dogs, children (whom he loathed) and anyone else who wouldn’t stand up to him. Whatever games they played, he was free-longeing his owner, I promise you.
Which is why she dumped him at the auction where we got him, after he became “dangerous.” Took me a couple of years to totally re-make his snotty ground manners.
The bottom line is that for very horse-knowledgeable trainers, who know what equine body language really means, these techniques CAN work; but when the less experienced try the same thing too often the HORSE winds up “training” the OWNER! That’s why I still believe the old-school methods of (a) desensitize, (b) ground training, © longeing, (d) ground-driving, and finally (e) backing still work best. They were good enough for the U.S. Cavalry, and believe me, THEY turned out more useful horses that anyone could ride than any other outfit to date. Why go gimmicky when basic works better?
[QUOTE=Donnie Steele;8202535]
Hi COTHers - Donnie Steele from SmartPak here to chime in. Many thanks to the OP for sending me a note and raising the issue. I’ll start by saying that as always, I welcome any and all feedback and am happy to have it sent directly to me at dsteele@smartpak.com. As a group, you’re loyal SmartPak customers and passionate horse owners, and I’m always ALWAYS interested in hearing your feedback.
On to the topic at hand… As a bit of background, we live for healthy horses and happy riders. Not only is it a wonderfully simple brand position, it’s also the lens we use to make key business decisions every day. When we think about the notion of “healthy horses,” it starts with education around what a sound, individualized nutritional program looks like for a horse. It’s a concept that a great many horse owners need more information on, and we try very hard to bring our message to horse owners all over the country – often to unlikely places. We simply go where the horses are. Admittedly, that mindset got us to Downunder Horsemanship, which observing from the outside, drew many riders – riders that were committed to improving their horsemanship skills and looking for guidance on how to do so.
While I’m passionate about bringing the SmartPak story everywhere horse owners gather, there is in fact a limit. As you can imagine, this relationship is governed by an agreement that is filled with obligations, expectations and timelines. I’m probably at my limit of what is reasonable to discuss in a public forum, but I personally (this is solely my POV) am concerned and disappointed in the feedback I’m hearing coming back from the tour stop. This will be addressed.
alfonsina, I’m sorry you received a less detailed response from our Customer Care team. While they are exceptional and completely at liberty to solve customer issues on their own, they are simply unable to provide deep insight on business issues. However, as is always the case, they capture the feedback and it gets elevated (or lowered as the case may be, I sit 30 steps below our Customer Care team).
Again, thank you guys for the feedback and raising the issue with me. Hopefully, we’ve built enough of a track record at addressing the issues that you raise to have sufficient credibility when I say that we will deal with this.
Donnie Steele
dsteele@smartpak.com[/QUOTE]
Sigh SmarkPak. Classy as always. What will the masses have to complain about with your explanation?
(agree it is a legit concern from all angles)
Thanks for the response, Donnie!
I agree with Pennywell Bay. I just sent Donnie an email, and encourage everyone else willing to speak up to do so as well. I don’t know the nature of the SmartPak contract, but having worked for lawyers in the past (and having some in my family) I certainly know that contracts can be hard to end sometimes. I figured adding my name to any others who may also feel that CA should not have SmartPak as a sponsor can only help.
when he first started having sessions on RFD-tv I watched a few and was glad I wasn’t his horse! since then it’s gotten way worse. if I said what I really think of him I’d probably get sued.
Standlee and Vetericyn are the only two I currently have in the barn. will contact them immediately and urge them to re-think their sponsorship. with thousands of people watching CA or others of his ilk tho, one voice objecting won’t be very loud. still, it’s worth doing.
I tried to learn what all JL was about, have his early books, some magazines and a double VCR tape set and there was nothing much there.
I caught, on RFD-TV I think, decades ago, a show with him roundpenning a gray yearling colt and talking all the time, the colt started out lame on the front, he still kept running him around, the colt stopped when he was not looking several times and laid down, something clearly wrong and JL didn’t seem to notice, just got him up and running again.
After a while, I didn’t want to watch any more of that and don’t know where that ended.
Working an obviously fat, lame colt like that was definitely not something I expected from any horseman that knows what they are doing, so my impression just was not a very good one.
Then, that may have been a one time thing and have a good explanation behind it, who knows …
SmartPak is showing some corporate Smarts - good reply from Donnie. Lets see where it all leads. Maybe CA needs a soap sponsor so he can wash his mouth out!
You know even lunging can go south with some timid folks, free lunging even more so.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8202600]
That may be, but the fact remains that those “round-pen chasing” techniques can turn things really south when the AA owners try them. [/QUOTE]
Which is why I really appreciated him (John Lyons) coming out in his later years as a trainer and admitting that this “chasing around the round pen” method was perhaps not the best for the horse.
After all, he had a lot of books and videos out on “round pen reasoning” so for him to publicly make a statement like that took courage and selfishness.
Hope some of the other trainers can grow up and put their egos aside and start doing right by the horse.
The threat of pulling sponsorship money tends to get their attention–hopefully.
Update from my perspective on things. I am working on communications to the major sponsors of the show I saw, and primarily to RFD TV. This is how little I knew about the guy, I had to go googling looking for the show to find out more about it. I’ve also been watching some of his videos on YouTube so that I can learn more.
My envelope to a sponsor will include a printout of the post I made here on this forum, and a link to the thread for the recipient to view reactions if they choose. However, the crux of my letter addressing them is going to be to request that they re-evaluate Mr. Clinton in his current in-person clinics and demonstrations today, rather than rely on renewals of his existing contracts or sponsorship based on the his past history.
According to www.downunderhorsemanship.com, his next in-person events are:
7/10-7/12 Puyallup, WA - 3 Day Fundamentals
8/7-8/9 Maple Plain, MN - 3 day fundamentals
8/22-8/23 Lexington, VA - Walkabout Tour
9/11-9/13 Frankfort, KY - 3 day fundamentals
For the “Downunder Tour” I went to, tickets purchased on the website were $50 each. I went because an acquaintance was part of the “No Worries” club and got five free tickets, so she offered one to me. While I would in no way be happy about anyone giving any more cash to this guy, just making you-all aware of how you could potentially gain entrance to see for yourselves. The No Worries club may be signed up for as one payment of $199.99 or 12 payments of $19.99 with a commitment of 12 months. The 3-day fundamentals appear to be $150 or $100 “NWC” (I assume NWC must mean auditing?).
Please note this statement from the website:
“You may take as many still photos as you want. Videotaping and audio recording are strictly prohibited and will be grounds for eviction from the event and/or confiscation of the recording device.”
Additional sponsors listed on his website not mentioned in my earlier post:
ABI Equine.com
Cashel
Noble Outfitters
www.NRCHA.com - national reined cow horse association
www.nrha.com - national reining horse association
and note my spelling error on safe-guard, not safe gard
I hope all the sponsors pull out. The guy has always been condescending towards people and he has a “get them before they get you” mentality towards the horses.
The horse world does not need him.
The Puyallup location is right up the road from me. I’m going to be showing that weekend. But if I was free and I could find an extra ticket, I’d go just to video tape it. I’m not worried about getting kicked out. But I certainly wouldn’t spend my money on seeing him!
[QUOTE=ladymcts;8203469]
The 3-day fundamentals appear to be $150 or $100 “NWC” (I assume NWC must mean auditing?). [/QUOTE]
NWC = No Worries Club. Members get a discount.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8203488]
NWC = No Worries Club. Members get a discount.[/QUOTE]
Compare to the Gunsils from the Savvy Club?
[QUOTE=MojitoMare;8203476]
The Puyallup location is right up the road from me. I’m going to be showing that weekend. But if I was free and I could find an extra ticket, I’d go just to video tape it. I’m not worried about getting kicked out. But I certainly wouldn’t spend my money on seeing him![/QUOTE]
If you can’t snag video on your cell, record audio on it. Post it online. THAT will get sponsors’ attention (but don’t listen to me if it’ll get you sued).
Even a concerned call from a sponsor might wake him up a little bit … he needs some serious social media help to put out these fires now, I doubt this bad publicity stops here.
He may not care, though, and hope his blind followers never actually question anything or google his name.
