Sabino to Sabino??...a problem?

[florida_foxhunter]

Wow, it sure is easier to be a tobiano breeder (like I am)…you either are one, or you aren’t! Of course the amount of white and where it lands isn’t always predictable!

Two stallions that come to mind are Popeye K and Balta C’Zar. Both have beautiful markings and I would assume have bred to a LOT of mares owned by
mare owners uneducatd in genetic coloring. I’d think a lot of white
socks mare owners would think if they bred to a stallion with high socks, they would have a better guarantee of getting those coveted white socks! So given that theory, there should be many of those offspring out there. Guess that is what I was trying to determine when I asked my second question in this thread.

You all are being very helpful. I did speak to Animal Genetics Laboratory here in Tallahassee and they did confirm that a homozygous Sabino would have a maximum expression of the white (like the 95% mentioned)…so the mare owner who I started this thread for is heading there this afternoon for a Sabino test…although I am still confused about all the different types of Sabinos that aren’t testable. For instance, if you have a Sabino 1 mare bred to a Sabino (2??.or whatever it would be called)…would it still techincally be “homozygous” for Sabino (if the foal got both Sabino type genes), or do they have to be the specific category of Sabino’s for the maximum white?

If she’d wanted more white than socks, she’d bred to one of my boys, pintos, haha! Oh, and before I get critized for breeding only for color, let me stress that’s not the case at all! I believe you can narrow the odds to get the color you want by being educated, without compromising the final choice for quality. There are plenty of nice boys out there to choose from!

[JB]

Different Sabino genes, therefore one cannot be “homozygous for Sabino” if the horse has is SB1sb1 (hetero) and, say, SB2sb2. 1 copy each of different genetics, but not homozygous for Sabino in general.

Now, what happens when you have SB1 and SB2 together? Dunno, since there’s no test for SB2 or beyond LOL

The max white identified so far is SB1.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=TaliaCristianna;5547398]
Otherwise known as, “time to buy stock in Quic Silver shampoo…”[/QUOTE]
You betcha!

[camohn]

[QUOTE=JB;5548096]
Different Sabino genes, therefore one cannot be “homozygous for Sabino” if the horse has is SB1sb1 (hetero) and, say, SB2sb2. 1 copy each of different genetics, but not homozygous for Sabino in general.

Now, what happens when you have SB1 and SB2 together? Dunno, since there’s no test for SB2 or beyond LOL

The max white identified so far is SB1.[/QUOTE]

FWIW both the white foals in my pics are tested as negative for SB1…so weather you call it dominant white or homozygous for one of the untestable sabinos (2 and beyond…last I knew there were at least 3) they are white and non SB1.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=florida foxhunter;5547917]
Wow, it sure is easier to be a tobiano breeder (like I am)…you either are one, or you aren’t! Of course the amount of white and where it lands isn’t always predictable![QUOTE]

Does make it easier doesn’t it? Although in the tobiano’s I have there are at least a couple (and some would say all but one) that have some overo pattern going as well (splash white seems to be the one I have the most of). I just finished paying off a homozygous stallion with a multiple world champion pedigree so solved the “you aren’t” problem…esp since there are a couple of HZ mares in the bunch as well (also with world ch pedigrees). Getting cowhorse blood and conformation first, great attitudes and then, lastly, color to make a complete package…only took me a decade or so.

[JB]

Camohn, I have a very strong feeling your boys are DW

[florida_foxhunter]

I just had a stallion owner respond with an answer from her “genitist”
.
“We don’t know everything about color genetics in horses yet, so their is always a possibility of a freak thing happening,but there is really no chance that a solid warmblood mare crossed with a sabino would produce anything more than the chrome you have seen. If the mare is black or bay and the foal is chestnut, they may produce more chrome than expected, as the most white tends to show up on chestnuts. If the mare owner wants a lot of sabino white she should breed a mare with markings like a sabino, possibly a bay or black with high whites and a big blaze and a tummy spot if possible…that will give the best opportnity of having lots of bling out of the baby. If she wants mostly white, she’ll have to breed a pinto warmblood mare and hope for the best, BECAUSE TWO SOLID WARMBLOODS WITH CHROME WILL NOT MAKE A 75% WHITE BABY UNLESS ONE HAS A PAINT/PINTO IN ITS ANCESTORY AN A FREAK CROP-OUT OCCURS.”
The above statement seems to fly in the face of what has been stated in this thread…and what was told to me by my genitist!..Confusing!!

[JB]

Obviously the “genetisist” knows nothing about “paints” LOL

Most of what she said is pretty true, but there isn’t “really no chance that a solid warmblood mare crossed with a sabino would produce anything more than the chrome you have seen.” - the chances are just really low.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=JB;5550327]
Obviously the “genetisist” knows nothing about “paints” LOL[/QUOTE]

Amen to that!! Bred a tobiano (sired by sabino/splash cropout and out of tobiano mare) to solid (as in not one white hair anywhere) mare…foal was almost destroyed at birth as he was solid white…matured to have ear edge, a few flecks of black in mane and tail, and about a dozen pencil eraser sized spots of buckskin on his hindquarters.

Most, if not all, of the early Paint cropouts came from QH x QH at a time when the amount of white on the QH’s was severely limited by AQHA rules. Horses like:

Painted Lasan…apron face, sabino legs, sabino lower barrel spotting, side of neck spotting in rough irregular sabino style (might have been frame/sabino but the legs/face are clearly sabino)

Adios Amigos…apron face with mustache, frame/sabino legs, frame body markings but with the sabino lacey edges

Sallisaw Rose…bald face with mustache, frame type body/neck markings, big belly white, sabino/frame type legs.

Painted Robin…bald face, mustache, frame type body markings but sabino/frame legs

Nylon…clearly sabino…white legs with lacey/jagged/broken tops, roany edged lower barrel/belly spots, bald face with broken spots abofe l. eye and between r eye and forelock

Calico Waggoner…sabino/frame…big white side of body/neck markings, bald face with mustache and eye patches

[camohn]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5550378]
Amen to that!! Bred a tobiano (sired by sabino/splash cropout and out of tobiano mare) to solid (as in not one white hair anywhere) mare…foal was almost destroyed at birth as he was solid white…matured to have ear edge, a few flecks of black in mane and tail, and about a dozen pencil eraser sized spots of buckskin on his hindquarters. [/QUOTE]

I got a call from a freaked out mare owner like that. It was the first foal she had bred and she did know about lethal whites. She was a good mare owner and had her mare tested (neg) for OLWS. Our stallion is also tested neg for OLWS. There is no chance the all white foal that was a shocker to her (mare is minimal splash looking markings). Her first and upset thought was that the tests were wrong since she was looking at this snow white foal. I told her to take a deep breath and asked “did the foal poop?”. She was puzzled why , but yes. I told her the foal is fine then. If he was LW he would not be nursing and pooping just fine.

[selah]

[QUOTE=JB;5550327]
Obviously the “genetisist” knows nothing about “paints” LOL[/QUOTE]

Actually…“geneticist”…but spelling is about the only thing I am understanding for certain in this fascinating thread!

The tobiano breeders say it’s a bit simpler to focus on breeding tobianos, but can’t tobiano mask a bunch of other genetic color traits?

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=selah;5550679]
The tobiano breeders say it’s a bit simpler to focus on breeding tobianos, but can’t tobiano mask a bunch of other genetic color traits?[/QUOTE]

Yes, it can. There is one place (can’t find it…too much junk on my computer!) that suggests that ANY facial white is from one of the “overo” patterns, most likely sabino or splash depending on the way it looks. I have several tobianos with one blue eye…in all cases it is a splash gene working. One of those also has a big wide blaze that is ruler straight across the top of it just under the bottom of her forelock…except that it has about one inch long upward “hooks” on the two “corners” giving it the look of having horns…I refer to her as my “devil mare”…she’s second in command but a real sweetheart so it isn’t fair to her to call her that but she doesn’t seem to mind. Since the overo patterns (all of them) are perfectly capable of not showing any expression at all its a good idea to test for OLWS (frame) at least as that’s the one that can cause the lethal white foals if you double up on it. I kind of like having the possibility of sabino and splash in the mix as it gives me a greater potential for color production (ie, one mare is a minimal splash…bred to a tobi stallion she’s produced a tovero, a solid, a tobi and another minimal splash who might qualify for regular registry).

I remember back in the early 90’s when I bred two tobianos together and drew down 11 months of wrath from the Paint breeders in the area convinced I’d produce a lethal white foal…Paint breeders in that area were just sure that lethals came from any two Paint patterns bred together but info was coming out in dribs and drabs about HZ tobiano and I was looking for one from my breeding. At that point we thought my stallion might be HZ (he’d sired about 9 or 10 tobi or tovero foals from overo and solid mares and no solids so we were looking pretty good…there wasn’t a test available at that point so production was how you proved tobi HZ). So I bred him to a paternal half sister (THAT didn’t bother the busybodies!!) and did indeed get a foal with a ton of inkspots… one of the clues you might have HZ tobiano. Turned out the stallion was not…his 15th foal from a solid mare was also a solid.

[JB]

@selah;5550679

Actually…“geneticist”…but spelling is about the only thing I am understanding for certain in this fascinating thread!

Yeah, sorry, type )

The tobiano breeders say it’s a bit simpler to focus on breeding tobianos, but can’t tobiano mask a bunch of other genetic color traits?

Yep. It’s pretty rare to find a Tobi who is JUST Tobi. If there is face white, it’s not JUST Tobi. And really, how many Tobis do you see these days with a solid head? Very, very few.

Got jagged edges to the Tobi spots? Tobiano puts smooth edges, but Frame will jag them up.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=camohn;5550420]
I got a call from a freaked out mare owner like that…I told her to take a deep breath and asked “did the foal poop?”. She was puzzled why , but yes. I told her the foal is fine then. If he was LW he would not be nursing and pooping just fine.[/QUOTE]

For some reason I’ve become the “go to” for such questions in this area despite raising tobiano horses…oh, well. And that’s the question I ask as well.

[MajesticDynasty]

[QUOTE=JB;5550706]
Yep. It’s pretty rare to find a Tobi who is JUST Tobi. If there is face white, it’s not JUST Tobi. And really, how many Tobis do you see these days with a solid head? Very, very few.

Got jagged edges to the Tobi spots? Tobiano puts smooth edges, but Frame will jag them up.[/QUOTE]

I LOVE a just tobi horse. So happy my boy doesn’t have a white hair on his face.

But I love my frame, splash, sabino girl just the opposite reasons lol

Genetics and expressions are fascinating.

[florida_foxhunter]

We’ll know more tomorrow about the mare in question. The Animal Genetics Lab here in Tallahassee is evaluating her.
I’ve had comments that “warmbloods” don’t produce “maximum” white…if homozygous sabino…but that confuses me more! In my mind, Sabino is just a color pattern, like Tobiano, so ANY horse can have it or not…
Geez, I’ve seemed to open a can of worms…but I’m still trying to understand it, even though it’s not my breeding/color program.
For the record, Claim to Fame has smoothe lines, a dark face and neck and a perfect star. So I assume he’s ONLY Tobiano…???

[JB]

But it’s not just “sabino”. There are multiple Sabino genes, with SB1 the only one testable so far. Sabino1 is Sabino1, regardless of the breed, and if it’s in a given WB by way of his parentage, then yes, if the horse is SB1SB1, he will be “all white”. So, your thinking on this is correct.

CTF is not just Tobi - he has a small star Tobiano does not put white on the head at all. So, any white on the head is from some Overo pattern - Sabino and Splash the most likely. Also, his color pattern is not all that smooth in nature - his right side, for example, has some fairly jagged edges. I highly suspect he has some form of Sabino.

But, he has an interesting white “movement” which fits a theory of mine (untestable as there is no test for Splash). I think Splash likes to pull that white of Tobiano up the shoulder like this. I would love to see a picture of Everest’s dam. His face white is very much Splash, and if the mare is not Splash, then we know CTF is.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=JB;5551760]
CTF is not just Tobi - he has a small star Tobiano does not put white on the head at all. So, any white on the head is from some Overo pattern - Sabino and Splash the most likely. Also, his color pattern is not all that smooth in nature - his right side, for example, has some fairly jagged edges. I highly suspect he has some form of Sabino.

But, he has an interesting white “movement” which fits a theory of mine (untestable as there is no test for Splash). I think Splash likes to pull that white of Tobiano up the shoulder like this. I would love to see a picture of Everest’s dam. His face white is very much Splash, and if the mare is not Splash, then we know CTF is.[/QUOTE]

Photo of CTF?

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5551899]
Photo of CTF?[/QUOTE]

Never mind…found!

Interesting…I find another clue to possible splash…the level horizontal line where dark meets white on the (I think it was) left front and the smooth curve of white on his rump. Splash tends to do horizontal lines that are pretty smooth and to bring white up the back/inside of hind legs to and sometimes over/around the tail.

Another question…is the son, Counterclaim, blue eyed on the left…or partial? His face white suggests splash and if there’s a blue or partial blue eye and he’s negative for OLWS you can bet your boots there’s splash in the mix.

[JB]

Right front - but yes, interesting, hmmm, I think I agree with you. I had never noticed that before!

As for Counterclaim - I have no doubt he’s also Splash. I have never, not that I remember, seen a picture of his dam though. FC - do you have one?

The filly Carmenere is no doubt also Splash, and it appears to not have come from the dam.

Oh, here we go - check out the CTF '08 filly Sparkle, on the Foals page. Her right side just says, to me, Splash.