That’s why I put the word “and” in there. Also my question was, if you had knowledge of bullying, harassment, sexual assault etc you would just go to law enforcement and NOT to Safe Sport so they can continue working with minors and put other children at risk? Good to know.
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You don’t say.
Additionally- SafeSport goes in to detail that a behavior can violate SafeSport conduct, but not be illegal. Everyone focuses on child abuse, but it also includes bullying, harassment, hazing, emotional and physical misconduct. Obviously- not all are reportable offenses to the police, nor should they be.
For everyone complaining about SS- doesn’t the new Safe Sport Authorization Act 2017 make it mandatory for the USEF to mandate its members take this training? Did this bill pass? I’m fuzzy on it.
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It did pass and that’s why people are up in arms. I guess so long as they and people they know are not a victim of bullying, hazing, etc things should go back to the status quo. So long as they and people they know are not the victim of a crime reportable to law enforcement (and even then) the status quo should remain.
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I am required to report to the police or DCS or to the investigating authority. (Tribal, DCS).
I am not required to call the Boy Scouts of America, the Catholic Church, or any other organization and tell them that I made such a report even if I know that the individual is a member of that organization and it occurred there. If someone’s life or safety is in danger, I clearly will make that known to law enforcement.
If I see a 17 year old kissing his trainer’s 21 year old working student, am I required to report to law enforcement? Depends.
There are multiple nuances to this and no training can fully describe these nor train in this manner HOW to learn how to report and when. It’s like playing on Webmd and then wanting prescriptive authority. Apples and oranges but some would like to believe their internet searches make them an expert.
Here’s where I see this being a problem, and here is how this came up. States have rules. Going through this training does not teach you the state rules.
Trained investigators do exactly that… Investigate.
The example I gave above… A consensual relationship between someone of a certain age, and believe it or not this age it might be younger than you think, and someone in a position of authority, should be managed by law-enforcement. DCS and law-enforcement whether that be tribal or local police or agency, should be allowed to do their job. They are trained to do this.
I have concerns about much of this. Report to LAW ENFORCEMENT/DCS is first step. Always. If law-enforcement wants to work with safe sport, fine. But there needs to be one place to report.
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I’m starting to believe people are pushing back on this so hard because they know their coach, their friends or themselves are the types of people SafeSport wants to eliminate from our Olympic sports and associated clubs.
Either that or people are really having trouble with simple concepts or don’t actually have the backgrounds they claim they do.
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Former mandatory reporter, still would report if I saw something. I was a juvenile probation officer who unfortunately reported a lot over my 7 years there - sometimes the kids would make things up about parents because they were mad… but it still had to be reported. In a few cases criminal charges were filed and thankfully my actions helped that to happen and get kids out of dangerous situations. Depending on the situation it was either call the police (rarely as they were past reports of events), or, in most cases if there was not immediate danger it was to call the Kansas Child Abuse Hotline to file a report. They would then either call the police or file and do an investigation. If the investigation found no substantial reason to take further action then I, as the reporter, would get a letter and that was that. Unfortunately, there were a couple cases where I called and made reports at least every other month (new things happened and I just knew something was going on even if the police and DCF couldn’t substantiate it)… eventually, they were able to substantiate but it is not a perfect process either. One led to an FBI investigation and broke up a small prostitution ring involving three different teenagers (took 2 years to get to sentencing due to hearings getting continued) so absolutely if you see something report it because you never know. I didn’t think what was going on was that intense, and it was the only one I ever had like that, but imagine if I just ignored things.
Anyways, off on a tangent… but I’d rather be safe than sorry when it comes to reporting. I don’t know the specific SafeSport process, but I’d assume that they do an initial investigation of some sort to see if anything is substantiated and then post names vs get report post names and not do any sort of follow through?
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I’m not sure if you are intentionally being obtuse or don’t understand what I and others are saying.
Regardless, I won’t respond directly to your attempts to make this a black and white either/or situation and also to attack individual writers. See logical fallacies 101.
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I’ll counter that with what are considered reportable offenses by SafeSport are not necessarily criminal offenses when it comes to behavior.
Nice try though especially since I am not the one getting wrapped around the axle about this.
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You are a masterclass in logical fallacy.
Clearly by discussing mandatory reporting I am discussing those offenses which fall under mandatory reporting.
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Um mandatory reporting under SafeSport includes non-criminal offenses. Do try to keep up.
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So I just want to circle back to the Equine Sports Council nonsense. As another poster pointed out, that is an organization formed by lawyers who earn a living defending equestrian sports rule violators. If you look at how these lawyers have defended clients in the past, much of their defense strategy has been to discredit by any means possible the organization that is attempting to sanction their clients. They also have excellent skill in stirring up social media support through extremely biased and inaccurate posts and podcasts. I do not fault these lawyers for attempting to defend their clients to the best of their abilities, but attacking and attempting to dismantle a program like Safe Sport–which we sorely need in this industry–is, IMO, a bit disturbing.
Before you make up your mind about Safe Sport, I would go to the USEF website and watch their videos and read the USEF Safe Sport Policy to educate yourself. The USEF Safe Sport materials list the detailed process of investigations and hearings, and also explains why Safe Sport is not based on criminal laws in various states. As you make up your mind, I would urge you NOT to allow yourself to be manipulated by highly biased parties who have a very strong vested interest in discrediting the Safe Sport program.
If you have constructive criticism as to exactly how Sport could be improved (other than suggesting that we ignore potentially serious allegations because we might ruin careers or reputations or might cause people to them to harm themselves) I would urge you to share it. Perhaps you think the Safe Sport organization should offer some sort of counseling to the accused? Perhaps you think that the process should include additional hearings? Perhaps you have a suggestion as to how the USEF or Safe Sport can ensure (and perhaps prove to the public) that the hearings are fair and unbiased? Please share.
Additionally, if you have firsthand knowledge of Safe Sport being being misused (not based on a rumor or a FB post), you absolutely should report that.
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Thank you for a real post without rancor, I knew nothing about ESC beyond some limited info I found, that made them sound legitimate. AND discussion on FB from some very valid people who are not just stirring the pot. And asking a few attorneys I know until I found someone who knew of them and said they were a legitimate group. I’m sure there is another side to the original story, and there is not a lot of valid info available about either SS or ESC.
i actually had some genuine helpful comments for SS, both in regards to their training modules (which are not accessible to those who live in truly rural areas with limited or no internet access, and yes, that is a genuine issue in the US), , AND in regards to providing mandated training to those who MOST need it, juniors AND their parents. SS was absolutely uninterested in such feedback. Their only response was I need to get a new internet provider. I had made some realistic suggestions such as providing the training on a dvd or flash drive for those lacking broadband access. And suggested they compress their video files so they didn’t require such huge band width (if Netflix and YouTube can do it, SS can). I also pointed out that parents should be their kids biggest advocate, and should be most aware of what was going on, yet there was nothing for the parents. I know a few parents of young riders, and none of them have even heard of SS. Meanwhile riders like me and many of my friends have no contact with kids in a training situation at all, we aren’t in training barns, we show off our trailers at shows, and are mandated to take the training every couple of years .
Several of my friends have simply decided they are dropping out of USEF and rated shows. We have a robust schooling show circuit for both jumpers and dressage, and inaccessible mandated video was the final straw. It isn’t just dissatisfaction with SS, but overall with USEF. But SS was the final straw. So loss of members, which USEF is supposedly concerned about.
I do do also have a personal discomfort with this guilty until proven innocent feeling I’m getting from SS. Sending out names of people while an investigation is under way makes me highly uncomfortable. I worked in public education for years, and you don’t release names until you are 100% sure. Many of the best teachers and coaches take specific kids under their wings. It would look like "grooming " to any observer, but it has nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with recognizing some kids need a little help, a friend, someone to stick up for them. Especially in the teen years where girls are incredibly cruel. Far more bullying goes on kid to kid and it can be devastating. Now these teachers, these coaches become suspect. People on this thread are already pointing fingers, oh if you don’t agree 100% with this program, you are possibly a pervert and a child molester. This is not the solution to a very serious problem.
Someone just committed suicide - we don’t know the facts, we have no idea of guilt or innocence. But it should make everyone slow down and think of consequences on both sides.
Also, as already pointed out, if law enforcement is involved, the last thing needed is a private organization ALSO doing their own investigation. Yes, I understand law enforcement doesn’t get involved with bullying, SS is going beyond just sexual abuse, and I’m a bit appalled that our governing organizations don’t have and enforce rules against inappropriate behavior (but then, we all know they don’t enforce rules against horse abuse so well either), but again, the guilty until proven otherwise makes me uncomfortable.
So, trying to stick to genuine issues and concerns. With the original article, if those numbers are accurate, they are of concern. Human nature is to condemn first. It is why we read Oxbow Incident in school, why we learned of the Salem Witch-hunt, of the McCarthy trials, to try to avoid this kind of behavior. It is why our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. Because our society has determined that a false guilty decision is worse then a false innocent decision. I do care very much about abuse, I’ve been a bullied kid (by other kids, not by a coach), I recognize it is a horrific issue in society, as a woman, I’ve seen firsthand what harassment is. I do get it. I just see SS as a political bandaid that could cause a lot of damage.
Sorry this his is so long, but since I started the thread, I figured I’d try to keep it on track. And for those who continue to lob the response, you protest so you must be a child molestor, just realize I’m not wasting the time to read and respond to those kind of responses.
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Very interesting post, OP (your most recent one, #53. I haven’t read the entire thread yet, just page 3 so far.
Interesting that you are referring to it as SS, I assume because it’s easier than to type Safe Sport all the time. Interesting, too, that you mention the McCarthy trials and other witch hunts, yet leave out the other SS.
Hopefully this modern-day, US, SS is not following the other’s precedent; hopefully our legal system will continue to practice “innocent until proven guilty.” But if you are correct that “human nature is to condemn first” (I don’t agree with you; it is not always that way), and, since humans are the ones who supposedly run the government in this country, or at least vote for those who do, well …
Yes. Very interesting post. Very thought-provoking too.
Honestly, I don’t think any rational person thinks that anyone who “doesn’t agree 100%” or has questions about safe sport is “possibly a pervert and a child molester”. I must have missed the nuance of some statement on this thread to that effect, and I truly think we all know better.
As for the heartbreak of knowing that a figure skater has taken his life, obviously in extremis, after being investigated for misbehavior under the Safe Sport rules, is sad thing for us all to hear.
HOWEVER, if we could see the suicide statistics of the children, the teenage, and the adult victims of sexual abuse, let alone the damage done to those whom did not end their lives, yet felt they could not speak up because their abusers were most often in a position of power and there was no “proof” (as if children or adults are able or wont to video their “fondlers” and rapists) there are no doubt thousands upon thousands of abuse victims dead by their own hand.
Yet,we will never have those numbers.Their faces are not famous and they die quietly without press coverage.
Comparatively few people choose to off themselves rather than stand in court for their innocence.
Of course a person in a depressed state of mind may not feel they have the fortitude or the optimism to engage in an argument to clear their name and will instead feel that suicide is a relief. That, tragic as it is, I feel is often more of a lack in our mental health awareness and our available care system, than a failure of the law or of the Safe Sport rules.
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Oh, moooooo. It’s pointless to discuss this anymore with you.
Netg, let’s discuss this off-line. I’m all for protecting children and adults for that matter, and there is so much more to this. When discussing vulnerable populations, shouldn’t we be including elderly? And what about protecting the animals… Our world? :-). And talking about a vulnerable populations… Being taken advantage of… In the horse world?? Never!
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Check out some of the posts above and you will see specific examples of what Mystic Oak is talking about regarding the ridiculous responses.
I had a friend from elementary school who was falsely accused of something. She could no longer take it and she went into the middle of her pasture and she shot herself surrounded by her beloved horses. She was innocent.
I am not making any statement of judgment about the individual who killed himself.Just stating that false statements ruin lives, and victims who aren’t believed have their lives ruined. Sometimes it’s too much.
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@MysticOakRanch You are correct, the Equine Sports Council is a perfectly legitimate group. However, their mission is not public service. It is a tool to discredit Safe Sport for the purpose of defending clients who are in violation and to publicize their services as attorneys. Look at the names of the attorneys who are all over the website: Ms. Tamara Tucker (attorney who defended Ms. Mandarino related to the death of the pony, Humble), Ms. Bonnie Navin and Mr. Michael Romm (attorneys for Glefke and Farmer). These are all very competent lawyers, but they are a highly biased source of information and they can use their official sounding website to eloquently promote their agenda in a totally unopposed manner. If they came on this forum with some of their “information,” I’m sure there would be many rolled eyes and quick rebuttals.
I find it hard to follow this great concern over false allegations. Yes it is a real concern that people have dealt with for years in many different settings. Should we do away with state laws that criminalize rape and child molestation because someone could be falsely accused? Should we do away with school and workplace codes of conduct because someone could be falsely accused of breaking those codes? Should we ignore allegations of sexual misconduct because an accused person might harm themselves? I just don’t think we can do away with laws, rules, and codes of conduct or fail to enforce them because of the possibility of someone being harmed by false allegations. Nor do I think you can give potential predators or rule breakers a “pass” from being investigated because there is a chance they might commit some type of self-harm.
I for one am very glad for the presence of Safe Sport within equestrian sports. I cannot understand why someone would leave USEF over it. Historically, equestrian sport has been an environment that has tolerated and even protected abusers. Safe Sport is not the criminal justice system, nor does it need to be. People in all kinds of jobs and workplaces are subjected to codes of conduct totally unrelated to the justice system–codes that absolutely have the potential to affect their reputations and careers. Safe Sport brings a basic code of conduct into to world of sports. Read the list of behaviors involved. Are any of these behaviors things that would be tolerated in your workplace? And yet, do you live in constant fear that you will be falsely accused of them?
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I’m not being snarky, just FYI.
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Yes, but they will not come to your house and arrest you for drunk driving because someone said you did it at some point in the past, with no real evidence to back up their claim.
In other words, drunk driving is a bad example.
Since I know a person who as a teen made up a fake story of someone trying to abduct her (she wanted attention), that involved lots of police and lots of finger pointing before she admitted it was all not true… the whole thing scares me.
I want people (not just kids, all people) to be safe. I just worry about how all this will work. I do agree that I think it makes far more sense to have the kids and the parents of kids take something like this, I just have no idea how the logistics of how to make that work…
