Fair point if you are going to get in to semantics, but the news is full of “accused” and “suspected”. Accused people get to defend themselves- in Safe Sport and other aspects of life. I sincerely doubt that Safe Sport is going to have a huge influx of false reporting. If it happens because of Safe Sport- it would most likely have happened anyway. Much like the person you know- if it isn’t credible it won’t move forward.
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The text of the Law;
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-…-bill/534/text
I cannot see any reference to making Safe Sport training a requirement for membership/participation in sports organizations.
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There isn’t from my understanding, either.
Some other comments:
Every person who attempts to insist that we should go to Starbucks to do safesport training 1) has never been to rural horse country in Virginia or other areas to see how far Starbucks can be and 2) has zero understanding of what kind of bandwidth is available for free vs what it takes to run this training. We’ve gone over that ad nauseam in other threads, but the ignorant don’t want to be educated. We’ve given potential options. And the inability to do group training is a USEF policy - the SafeSport org is perfectly happy to let us do that.
The US Judicial system is already flawed. I do not in any way trust this organization with no evidence of their training/experience to handle things properly. And as they stress in the training, even, we should not question someone we think may have been a victim of this treatment. If I suspect anything criminal, I’m going to law enforcement, NOT SafeSport who is not law enforcement and has no right to behave as if they are. It could hurt their profits, but I don’t give a crap, I care that investigations not have tampering, even potentially well-meaning tampering.
Bullying or other things which are against organization rules but not illegal? Sure, I’ll go to SafeSport.
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Of course being falsely accused is a terrible thing, as is being a victim of abuse.
I don’t see why false accusations would be any more of a problem in Safe Sport than they are in law enforcement.
The pendulum has swung against victims for so long and is finally swinging into a better balance. Hopefully a fair balance can be achieved. We have to try.
We can argue til the cows come home about the best way to prevent the terrible abuse and the blind eye that allowed such systemic horrors as the abuse of children in U.S. gymnastics and the Catholic church. Safe Sport is an attempt to address this problem in sport and I’m glad that they are giving it a try. We’ve already done “nothing”, leaving the problem to law enforcement, and that hasn’t worked out well.
We’ll see if Safe Sport really is as awful an idea as some people believe. If there are real problems with the program they can be addressed, but I think we need to give it a chance.
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So apparently USEF is OK with live/group training, at least in certain settings. I received an email from the American Morgan Horse Association that they are hosting a live SafeSport training during their annual convention. They very specifically noted that the training is FREE and open to ANYONE, not just AMHA members or those registered for the AMHA convention. It also notes that a similar training was held during the USEF annual meeting.
That doesn’t address how difficult it would be to schedule a group training or what it would cost the GROUP hosting it, but at least it appears to be an option.
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Full text of the AMHA email here:
The American Morgan Horse Association is hosting a “live,” US Center for Safe Sport Training in conjunction with its upcoming 2019 Annual Meeting and Convention being held in San Antonio, Texas. The training, led by US Center for Safe Sport Training and Technical Assistance Manager Dan Mills will be held from 2 to 4 PM local Central time on Wednesday, February 6 at the Hyatt Regency Hill Country Resort & Spa located at 9800 Hyatt Resort Drive, San Antonio, Texas 78251. This “live” training can be completed in lieu of the online course with the US Center for Safe Sport and will satisfy the training requirement for US Equestrian members. If you attend this live training presentation, your safe sport training requirement with US Equestrian will be fulfilled for the following 12-month period.
AMHA invites all US Equestrian members to participate regardless of your breed or discipline affiliation with USEF. This training is NOT limited to AMHA members or convention participants. Just like the online course offered by the US Center for Safe Sport, the training is FREE to any US Equestrian member. The only requirement is that you register in advance as we are limited to the first 35 participants that reserve a spot. In order to register to attend, please contact AMHA Executive Director Carrie J. Mortensen (by e-mail ONLY at execdir@morganhorse.com). Reservations will be given on a first come, first served basis and confirmations will be e-mailed back to confirm your spot as properly reserved. Participants are encouraged to arrive a minimum of 15-20 minutes before the official start time as once the door closes and training begins, no further participants (registered or not) will be allowed to enter the training room. (You must be present for the ENTIRE training to receive the proper credit.)
AMHA leaders attended the first “live” Safe Sport Training held January 8 at the recent US Equestrian Annual Meeting and Convention. Having already completed the online training, AMHA leadership felt compelled to understand all training options available. Of the four AMHA representatives participating, all held the strong consensus that the “live” training provided an added value aspect and was a positive experience. Therefore, we encourage those that have already taken the online training to feel free to participate and experience the added benefit of this live training.
AMHA encourages the sharing of this notice to all groups and affiliates. AMHA fully supports the Safe Sport Initiatives aimed at providing a competition environment free from sexual abuse, harassment and bullying. We believe that these goals are in the best interest of the sport, our youth and the entire equine industry. We hope this live training will be a positive alternative for those having challenges completing the online training. Now, let’s fill the seats!
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I’d like to explore your statement that you would not report anything illegal to Safe Sport, but to law enforcement only. That has been our system for some time, and I think we have a lot of proof on hand that it is not a system that effectively stops sex offenders.
Let’s say for the sake of argument you head over to a highly respected trainer’s farm. You get there early, come into the barn/arena, and witness sexual contact between adult trainer and a minor student. You immediately call the police. The police come out and question various parties. The trainer is arrested. You breathe a sigh of relief.
But then, the victim and their family choose not to cooperate. There are a lot of reasons this can happen. Maybe the victim’s family feels that the child will be harmed by having to repeat what happened to them multiple times to the police and then in court. Maybe the victim is in denial or believes that the relationship was “consensual.” Maybe they believe that harm will come to them or their family if they say what happened. Maybe they believe that they will be ostracized in the horse community if they testify against a well-respected trainer. Maybe the victim or their family doesn’t want the publicity and would rather “handle things quietly.” Maybe the parents don’t want their child to be known as the child that was molested. Maybe the child has some emotional instability or immaturity and the parents don’t think they will be believed in court. Maybe the trainer has already offered some kind of a payment or settlement to the victim or their family. Maybe the victim’s parents rely on the trainer for employment. In any case, between the victim’s refusal to cooperate and a smooth “explanation” from the trainer or their lawyer (including how you have some kind of a grudge over…something), the trainer goes free and is immediately back teaching and training minors and even traveling to shows with them.
Is this an outcome that you would be comfortable with? I’m asking you to imagine this because this is the reality of how the criminal justice system works.
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I’ve already responded to much of your comments in my post, including suggestions for SS, and my concerns over a group that operates outside of our legal system that is operating as investigative branch, judge, and jury. There are no checks and balances. We obviously disagree so let’s not continue to engage in a pointless disagreement. Our legal system has protections specifically to prevent abuse of power. SS has no such protections. You are comfortable with that, I am not. We won’t agree. I’ve been in 3rd world countries where there are no protections for the accused, and believe me, crime still occurs but now innocents often pay for it. Our system is inefficient and not always correct, must it is better then most, and has evolved by learning from past mistakes.
Regarding internet access, you and several others on this forum show the same lack of knowledge over rural America that SS shows. . Rural is not a bunch of 5 acre ranchettes near a city. My entire sprawling county as an example, has about 30,000 residents. There are no Starbucks, gasp (well there is one in the county seat, but it is drive through only). The library is open 9-4 or 11-4 weekdays only. They limit people to 30 minutes of internet daily, and it is not high speed. We simply have no high speed providers in the county, it is not profitable enough for ATT or Verizon, or any other big companies to lay optic fiber. There is one library location in the entire country that has that access, the other locations have even less operating hours and are cubbies where you can pick up books you requested the prior week. So anyone taking SS would need to take THREE days off work to complete it. And this is an annual or biannual requirement. And I’m not in the MidWest, where there are often even less options, longer drives, The digital divide is a very real issue in this country. I’ve made suggestions to both SS and USEF on this topic too, and was totally blown off. Get new internet, seriously if that was an option, don’t you think I would have done that? There are MANY people in this country that lack adequate internet and pay way too much for the limited access they have. As someone who worked in education, believe me, it is a huge issue for our children too. But these tend to be lower income kids (and adults), so no one really cares enough to do anything. Google digital divide and you’ll get plenty of data about this very real problem.
No snark, just information.
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If the victim doesn’t cooperate, what makes you think they will cooperate with SS? If SS does an investigation and the child and their family say nothing happened, and the other kids say nothing happened, then I hate to say it, but nothing happened… if they do an investigation and you, a witness at a show, file a complaint, and all who are actually involved say it was misconstrued, we are right back to the same result.
I’d be more worried that parents will think, now my child is dragged through this TWICE with two investigations going on. And potentially getting confusing and conflicting information from two different investigations. Of course we don’t know, because we haven’t experienced or seen the inner workings of an investigation.
Your concern just shows how much training is necessary for kids and parents!
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I think a better option is for people to sign something at every show or in every entry form stating that they are not under investigation.
Again due to my profession I am obligated to report anything to my employer, and to other organizations.
So report to law-enforcement, and let lawn Forssman handle it. Let them investigate. If they want to farm out there investigations to safe sport that’s their choice.
Make people self report.
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And your profession actually allows you to be this trusting? I call BS. Never mind what you are missing is the non-criminal complaints like bullying.
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I have been obligated (in the past) to report as a requirement of the job as well. Thankfully I was never faced with an occasion where it was necessary to do so.
You say you must report to your employer as well as law enforcement, and apparently you have to report to “other organizations” as well.
Have you found the system you are required to adhere to ineffective? Have false allegations been problematic since reporting to other entities is required?
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I disagree. Pursuing a conviction via the criminal justice system where a person will potentially be deprived of their liberty is a very different process that requires investigative interviews, rape kits/invasive physical exams, witness prep, and facing the person who abused them as they testify in open court. It is correct that that our justice system works this way, because when you are depriving someone of their liberty (putting them in jail), you need have an extremely high standard of proof.
Safe Sport functions differently. Safe Sport is not putting anyone in jail. Their investigations do not require the abused to face their abuser, and there is no public testimony. There is an investigation, and then multiple hearings and opportunities for appeals. And at the end of the day, all Safe Sport can do is to ban an individual from participating in USOC sports organizations.
Schools, businesses, youth groups, and many religious organizations know that relying solely on the criminal justice system to weed out predators is not adequate to protect children. That is why schools, workplaces, youth groups and many religious organizations also have their own codes and policies by which they can remove offenders from their organizations without requiring a criminal conviction. And, yes, if a child is molested at school both the school AND law enforcement will be investigating. Now you can see there is a gap here–youth sports that occur outside of schools and youth groups such as ice skating, gymnastics and equestrian sports have, in the past, had zero oversight other than the criminal justice system and that has allowed predators to flourish in our ranks.
All Safe Sport does is fill that gap. I don’t see any reason why our equestrian trainers and equestrian sport participants can’t be held to some basic standards of behavior that exist in just about every other setting. If someone sexually abused me in my workplace I would not have to go to court and wait for a conviction for my workplace to remove that person. Why should minors participating in equestrian sports have less protection than adults in their workplaces?
At the end of the day, we can agree to disagree, but I think we have a lot of proof that the previous system of relying on law enforcement was inadequate. So ultimately the question is how do you think Safe Sport needs to change be better? They have investigators that are trained by the FBI, offer multiple hearings and chances for appeals, and the only penalty they can dish out is a suspension from sport. What would you change to make the system better?
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I have a relative who was an underage rape victim. In the VERY flawed judicial system, the piece of garbage who did it was acquitted. It was due to faults of the investigators - if I were in the jury I might not have found the guy guilty, either, despite knowing he absolutely was, but the evidence being off because of investigative mistakes.
If you get a flawed body who doesn’t have the same training investigating as well, you will have even more missteps happen, and I believe more people will get off. Law enforcement IS required to check out accustations, so I’m not worried about that happening or not. If witnesses refuse to cooperate, you can’t get a conviction in any case.
I want every molester/rapist/assaulter in jail. The chances are better if investigations are done by people who investigate those type of crimes with their crime labs and resources behind them.
I’m not as worried about false convictions happening at all, but if they go through the judicial system, those are also less likely I think. I don’t want some sort of kangaroo court happening from this new “board” which is a for-profit org (I think, haven’t fact checked if they’re actually non-profit) trying to justify its existence. I do believe in the burden of proof. And in sexual assault and molestation type cases, that is defined differently - and the experts who are fully trained on how to handle it, in law enforcement, are the ones who understand that and how to handle everything. There are also more of them in every city than there can be SafeSport folks.
On the group front - it’s great that the AMHA is doing that. It sounds like they’re paying a SafeSport trainer to come do the training. I suspect other sports also do that. My GMO tried to get permission to do a group viewing of the online training because of the number of people we have who don’t have high speed internet. They weren’t allowed. I contacted SafeSport directly, first, and they said they would allow it and it’s up to the sport governing body.
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I wrote that I have to report to my employer (credentialing) and other organization (my licensing). I didn’t say that I have to report to law enforcement. My comment about law enforcement was regarding the topic at hand.
I have to self report. And I haven’t done anything requiring that :).
If if I am aware of someone who is abusing someone else then I would need to adddress that as well.
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I still can’t help but notice how many people are claiming to be on the wrong side of the “digital divide” and yet are extremely prolific message board and Facebook participants. The videos for safesport are approximately 2 minutes long. It uses about as much bandwidth as being on Facebook for 10 minutes uploading pictures. Is the difference just that one is something you want to do and the other isn’t?
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No, the difference is you are absolutely wrong about that.
Also, it is not necessarily those of us on this message board who are unable to do the training. I know of several who can’t.
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:love-struck::love-struck::love-struck::yes::yes::yes::rolleyes:
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There are 16 names on the permanent ineligibility list. The one I knew from my youth belongs there. There are other creeps that are out there that have slithered back under a rock or hopefully, left equestrian sport and youth sport all together because when I recognized one name, I could quickly think of a several of his peers that had inappropriate relationships with teenage girls during the same time frame.
Safe Sport brings abuse - sexual, authoritative, physical, mental, + - (sadly an extensive list) front and center to all sport participants. Safe Sport isn’t the final solution. It is an over due step forward and it is a positive addition to participation in licensed equestrian activities.
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How blessed of you to take on the crusade for the digitally disadvantaged.
As for the first part of your post, that doesn’t make any sense, so I can’t respond to it. The difference is I am absolutely wrong? That’s not a difference, but okay.
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