say no to Ellen DeGeneres support of HSUS

If you believe that then you need to stop breeding and training horses

Well I don’t know about your training or horsekeeping methods, but ours do not involve keeping our animals in a situation where they never see the light of day, have no freedom to express any normal social behavior or where they are locked up, unable to move (ever in our case) 24/7. The same cannot be said for meat or research animals.

There is a HUGE difference between caring and responsible pet/animal ownership and the methods used today in research and the meat industry…and I think most of us know this. Nor have I ever seen anywhere where PETA or HSUS have made an effort to ban animal ownership in general. This may be the belief of some of their followers, but it is not their agenda nor has it ever been, as far as I have seen.

And as for what rights animals should have?

Well, it would be nice if they had the right to express normal social behaviors, if they had the right to be able to move around freely for at least a few hours of the day, to stretch their limbs and to express natural behaviours. It would be nice if they were given sedatives and pain killers when parts of their bodies need to be hacked off to prevent them from expressing symptoms of extreme stress (stereotypies). It would be nice if they were treated with dignity and respect , for they deserve at least that if they are to die for something so petty as the momentary quenching of a food craving. It would be nice if they have the right to not be used in experiments that have already been done six hundred thousand times and they should also have the right to have sedation when being opperated on alive. They should have the right so socialize with their offspring and they should have the right to be spared from being caught in leghold traps. I am sure I can think of more such “rights”, but those are a sampling of what comes to mind when I think of what rights animals should have. I am not saying they should all be set free to get hit by cars and freeze to death. Just the basic right to be spared the extreme mental and physical pain that is caused in an effort to do things the cheapest way possible.

God forbid if we granted them these basic rights, these basic dignities…after all, what in the world would we do if we had to pay ten cents more per pound of meat??! Or if we had to stop wearing the dead body of another animal, or if we had to live without yet another brand of mascara. Wow, what a sacrifice, we’d really be suffering then.:rolleyes:

Please read some of the material on PETA’s website. You are an evil person ( according to PETA ) because PETA does not support ownership of animals. Instead they should be treated as a companion.
I have no idea if you are indeed a responsible owner. Makes no difference. If you own a pet you are in violation of their principals.
Maybe you might try going to their website and doing a search on Ownership.
Then come back and tell us you plan to give up owning your horses.

I’m a little confused.

I’ve spent quite a few hours drafting legislation to be put up by the HSUS that only helps animals. How do I know its helpful??? because I wrote it myself.
examples:

  • the relinquishment of double decker horse trailers
  • rules about dog tie-outs and chaining
  • a push against using electric shock devices on horses and bulls in rodeo settings

How is this ALL bad???
I mean, no one is perfect, and when you get to be a large business, theres no way everyone is going to agree with every aspect of it, but really- to denounce someone just because they are trying to help make a difference?

What you turn on others, you should only turn back and look upon yourself.
No one, and on company, is perfect.

[QUOTE=LetsChat;4096270]
I HIGHLY doubt they will be able to make the world vegan because if they try I might just promote cannibalism… starting with them![/QUOTE]

And mandatory Spay/neuter for them as well!!! :smiley:

:yes:

[QUOTE=Beverley;4098744]

Legislation against puppy mills is a great thing- I don’t know anyone who is ‘for’ puppy mills- the problem is that HSUS can take that laudable effort and ‘innocently’ suggest legislative language that not only gets the puppy mills, but also prevents legimate breeders, and especially packs of hounds, from operating- generally by a license system based on number of dogs that would break the bank for many hunts I know.[/QUOTE]

And once they are able to get a law on the books they will be able to reduce the numbers until it will be almost impossible to breed at all - which is their goal! Some of the legislation even takes away a breeders right to due process. Some of the proposed laws give the animal control people to right to enter someone’s property and house without the requirement for a search warrant! They have the right to confiscate your ALL your dogs and spay and neuter them before you even get your day in court!!! Some of us who have spent 20 to 30 years establishing a healthy bloodline would lose everything!!! And do not say that this cannot happen! It already has in some areas! :no:

Remember that is the animal radicals (PETA and HSUS) end goal - every dog and cat would be spayed and neutered! And that will be the end of domestic animals as we know them! This is not alarmist, this is fact!!!

Please, people get your heads out of the sand before it is too late!!!:no:

[QUOTE=Quest52;4100426]
I’m a little confused.

I’ve spent quite a few hours drafting legislation to be put up by the HSUS that only helps animals. How do I know its helpful??? because I wrote it myself.
examples:

  • the relinquishment of double decker horse trailers
  • rules about dog tie-outs and chaining
  • a push against using electric shock devices on horses and bulls in rodeo settings

How is this ALL bad???
I mean, no one is perfect, and when you get to be a large business, theres no way everyone is going to agree with every aspect of it, but really- to denounce someone just because they are trying to help make a difference?

What you turn on others, you should only turn back and look upon yourself.
No one, and on company, is perfect.[/QUOTE]

It is the other "little pieces of legislation they sneak into a bill! On the surface, it looks very nice to regulate these above mentioned things. But then they want to also take away my rights as a breeder! Some of the proposed legislation would not even allow me to have my dogs in my house and bed!!! The proposed legislation regulates just what type of floor, yard and bedding I have to provide my dogs!!! Oh yes, but I am one of the awful breeders! I interview each prospective puppy buyer, require spay and neuter of pet quality puppies and guarantee that I will take back ANY dog I produce regardless of age or physical condition at any time in it’s life! OBTW, I produce maybe 3 puppies every other year or so! BUT I am a target for these organizations and proposed legislation!!! :mad:

Arizona:

what then, are you doing about it? Are you out there, like I am, pushing other legislation? Are you speaking with the HSUS representative in your state about what bills that are currently being worked on??

I too, have many issues with the ways that animals are being treated, and the bad laws that are out there, things that aren’t being enforced… etc. I quit fulltime animal training to go to law school to make a difference. So that when I write the bill, and I edit the bill, and I lobby the bill, I know I’m making a difference, even if it is through the assistance of the evil HSUS.

IMO, one can make the biggest difference from the inside out, not from the forum board in.

eta: I’m not suggesting by FAR that anyone else do the drastic change that I did. I’ve seen some horrific things in many different animal venues and it drove me to do this. I wouldn’t ever suggest everyone needs to spearhead things like I have… but if you’re so up in arms about things, and you’re so disgusted, what are you doing to make a difference? I agree, if I were a responsible dog breeder who had a responsible number of pups to further a breed and legislation was written that would make it impossible for me to do that, I would be angry too. I don’t disagree with your outrage if what you say is true about the proposed legislation in your area. But I think a discussion like this would be much more beneficial to all to know what people can do, what people have done… not just “I feel” statements.

PETA has a sour taste in my mouth even more so when they were caught putting euthanized dogs in a dumpster like common trash. In a dumpster that did not belong to them to begin with. Animals are not “garbage” but they do serve a purpose in the order of things on this planet which we have destroyed. Dead animals carrion are taken care of by carrion eaters and insects is just one example of how the natrual order of life was meant to be long before us humans came along.

There are many ppl out there that are greedy, cruel, manipulative, BS talking, politicaly biased and over exadurators. In todays standards animals I think do have rights but not the same rights of that of a human. I am a meat eater and I dont think its wrong to eat meat. Now how the animals are cared for up to the time of slaughter needs to be changed to ease suffereing. Even God gave quail to the Hebrews after being released from slavery and in the wilderness.

I think animals need to be treated with more respect than many do. Putting a dog on a 4 foot chain with a poorly built dog house 24/7 cannot be physicaly or mentaly healthy for such animal… However if the dog was put on a dog run (several feet) and had a well insulated maintained dog house with routine fecal cleanup and human interaction is fine. Growing up that is how our huskey mix dog was kept. He was cared for with vaccinations, deworming, and baths when needed. His feces was cleaned up 2 to 3 times a week. THe chore was split up between me and my other 2 siblings. We also played with him, took him for walks and etc. He was cared for very well. He would pull us in our little round sleds during the winter snows. He was greatly missed when he died at the ripe old age of 13. We foun dhim dead in his dog house curled up in a little ball. We buried him and put a peice of that glass looking rock on it to mark the grave site.

The problem is that most organizations take the worse offenders and run with it. They dont look into the grey areas. Its eather black or white. My neighbor when I was young had beef cattle. They lived good lives. THey were in a big feild, fed during the winter and I would watch them gather up the cows and run them through a chute for thier worming or vaccinations or what ever else that needed to be done. They had babies each year and the babies grew up in the same manner as the rest of the cows and when it came to ship some off to be butcherd they were put into a big open trailor and taken to where ever they go. They lived decent none cruel lives. I dont and will not ever eat veal because I do find it cruel and discusting what is done to the calf to get that meat. I dont care for pork and eat very little of it. If I had the ideal situation I would be able to eat free ranged chicken, free range beef, non comercialized pork and eggs and ets.
How does one keep up with the ever so strong demand for meat products by a species that has way gone beyond its natural state to keep harmony on this Earth? Land is getting more and more scarce as humans demand more and more places to live, shop and play.

I dont think eating meat is wrong in no means but HOW the animals is treated before slaughter. I find it cruel to have to many animals packed in a trucktrailor or double decker. THe same for any animals for that matter. During the haulocaust Jews were packed in train box cars so tight they bearily had room to breath, they were treated like “animals”. (the only example i can think of right now) It was wrong and went against human rights but look how many thought that was ok to do. Same goes with the animals today. So many “ignorant” or just plain dont care ppl that are out there, they should be the ones punished or repremanded but then again who has the man power to keep tabs on every human with animals.?

I think these organizations start out with good intentions but lose sight on the goal and have had to many ppl in power that have been alowed to express and or force thier ideas onto others and not kept in tabs. Who keeps tabs on the one that makes the decision or the ones that should have never been alloowed to make judgements in the first place? Its a murky muddy pool of a mess with to many radicles, to many cheifs and not enough indians, Corporate BS that should not have become a Corp. to begin with becaus that is how many organizations lose track or sight on the end goal and you get to many greedy ppl or extremist to force thier ieads and what have you onto other pl then begin to play the money game. Its all on who is running the deal at the given time.

I am against puppy milling and I am for spaying and neuturing of any non breeding/performing animals. Willy nilly breeding of any animal is not good practiced and those are the ones that need to be tagged a good one.

If you are a vegitarian then thats fine I have absolutly nothing against Vegitarians. I grew up on a farm and we butcherd our own animals that did live and was treated with dignaty. We had a Jersey Cow that we milked when growing up and one day she just stopped producing milk. Back then horomone streatments and what have you was not practiced much and then farming ppl didnt have the finances to afford such treament. My dad was going to butcher her for the meat. He just could not go through with it. We were all atatched to her to much. She lived out her last few years grazing in and out of the field (in the yard) and we also rode her from time to time. She became a big pet. THe other cows had no special connecetion with us except for food but were kept well and healthy.

Quest 52- you didn’t ask me, you asked Arizona, but let me just say in response to your ‘what are you (we) doing about it’- the answer is NOT working with HSUS. But yes, working whenever needed and appropriate to draft GOOD WORKABLE legislation IF IT IS NEEDED. In my ‘real’ job over the decades I’ve done quite a bit of drafting legislation, commenting on legislation, analyzing legislation etc, so in my opinion one first looks to see if a particular law is needed- sometimes there is an appropriate law on the books that simply isn’t being enforced. If the law is needed- then is it well written. Many times well intentioned legislation has fatal flaws, or unintended consequences, such that they should NOT be passed even though the goal is admirable. So it is often with puppy mill legislation- yeah, everybody is for shutting down puppy mills, but every single piece of proposed legislation on the subject has also, as written, imposed significant penalties on legitimate animal owners and breeders. Inasmuch as pretty much all of that legislation has been proposed by or through HSUS in the various legislative bodies, mainly at the state level- it can’t in my opinion be dumb coincidence that these penalties for the ‘good’ dog owners are ALWAYS in there.

Now I’ll ask you. You say that you drafted legislation regarding ‘use of electric shock devices.’ I presume by that you mean cattle prods. And so I will ask- what is your particular expertise as regards cattle prods? How do you know they are something that needs to not be used? I will tell you that I grew up watching ranchers, auction house staff etc use such devices, and frankly, when used as intended, I don’t see them as cruel in the least. A little jolt keeps a 1500 lb animal from stepping on you. Really- it is NO DIFFERENT than the jolt delivered by electric fences, or the jolt delivered to dogs by invisible fence collars or training collars. So why is it thought to be cruel? Because people are uninformed, but it ‘sounds’ bad, so hey, let’s outlaw it. An example of the best of intentions, but zero knowledge base. I would hope you would agree that’s a frightening premise for drafting legislation.

And as regards working with HSUS- as I previously posted in this thread, I am quite sure that most who donate to it, and indeed probably most who work for it, are solid citizens who really care about animals. And that’s great. But as long as it’s Wayne Pacelle’s organization, with the path clearly defined by him in public statements, I view it as a completely unacceptable animal rights organization, no different than PETA. And the problem with that is, for the radical minority steering the ship, it really isn’t about the wellbeing of animals, it really is about hoping to make the world conform to a minority, radical lifestyle- pretty full of hate in general, I have observed over the years.

nope… its not a cattle prod. its a hand held very small device that is causing issues to push these animals out of the shoots. Feel free to PM and I’m sure I can scrounge up the videos.
But no… not a traditional cattle prod.

ETA: I PERSONALLY disagree with any sort of electric device uses on an animal, and PERSONALLY believe that it is abusive. That is something totally different than what I would ever try to push on a populous. (this is a totally different discussion of behavior and drive and R+, R-,P+,P- methods that are not the topic here)

Hear, hear, Beverley!

To JellyBeanQueen, I agree with 99% of your post. I have a background in the beef cattle industry. Our cattle lived healthy, natural lives on the ranch, with regular vaccinations, dippings for parasites, and other vet care when necessary. Our cows and bulls lived a good long natural life, and the calves raised for meat had a good (albeit shorter) life, too. Grass fed for a good portion of their lives. Much of the ranch is in a part of Colorado that lacks sufficient water to grow food crops such as corn or wheat. Cattle and sheep efficiently transform an inedible (for humans) plant (grass) into meat that we CAN eat. it’s a beautiful, natural thing.

My mother was a GSD breeder for years. She produced, on average, no more than one or two litters a year. Every pup ended up a good home. If the new owners had a change in lifestyle (a move, divorce, etc.) that made it difficult to keep the dog, Mom would take the dog back and find it a new home. She was not a puppy mill breeder. Heck, I think she loved her dogs more than she loved me!

HSUS and PETA would put even good breeders out of business if they could. That’s their goal.

I agree that PETA and HSUS are hypocritical in their approach to animal welfare. And THAT’s because they want to give animals RIGHTS, just like people. Why not give them the vote, too?

The bit that I do not agree with is your statement that humans have “destroyed” the earth. We are part of the natural world, too. It is not within our power to “destroy” the world. If we were swept from the face of the earth, our cities and towns would be overtaken by grasslands and forests within a few years. Meanwhile, our pets would run wild, be eaten by other animals, die earlier than they might have if they’d continued to be pets. But who would care if we’re all gone anyway?

Now, for laughs, let’s look at the flip side. A world without domestic animals, which is evidently what PETA wants. Oh, they’re OK if they’re “running free” and not “enslaved” by evil humankind. How empty would our lives be? No pet dogs, cats, horses, gerbils, birds to enrich our lives and love? No delicious beef, poultry or pork?

Sorry, BocaBurgers don’t cut it for me.

[QUOTE=Quest52;4100526]
Arizona:

what then, are you doing about it? Are you out there, like I am, pushing other legislation? Are you speaking with the HSUS representative in your state about what bills that are currently being worked on?? .[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! I am very active in working to make things better for ALL animals! I am working to stop the sale of puppies in the local Walmart! I work ( with my kennel club) to educate people on where to buy dogs! I rescue and have been rescuing dogs for over 20 years! Any responsible breeder works for all animals! I have testified and continue to work on educating our elected officials on the difference on animal welfare versus
animal rights = animal radicals… Have you ever read the real philosophy behind these people? They do not even LIKE animals!!! I so wish that people would learn the difference between animal radicals and animal welfare! :mad:

And by the way, I more I am vocal, the more I put MY animals at risk, dogs and my horses!!!

Quest 52, I think your last post says it all. You draft legislation based on second hand knowledge- videos skillfully edited to attempt to portray something as abusive. That you don’t know how to spell chutes makes me even more leary of your knowledge, and yet there you are, drafting legislation. No wonder those of us concerned with genuine animal welfare are kept so busy fighting bad legislation.

You are certainly entitled to your personal beliefs, even if they aren’t based on fact. You are not entitled to impose them on others.

[QUOTE=Quest52;4100670]

ETA: I PERSONALLY disagree with any sort of electric device uses on an animal, and PERSONALLY believe that it is abusive. That is something totally different than what I would ever try to push on a populous. (this is a totally different discussion of behavior and drive and R+, R-,P+,P- methods that are not the topic here)[/QUOTE]

That is really short sighted or just naive! We use electronic collars to train dogs here - to train and protect them from rattle snakes! Have you ever held a dog in your arms who just got nailed by a rattler? Believe me! Rattle snake avoidance training (a few zaps on a EC) is well worth the life of a dog! It is not the device, it is the idiot who is using the device! Come on! We could argue about the use of a horse twitch! I rescued a Morgan years ago who had lost the use of his lower lip because of a twitch! SO lets outlaw them too! and whips, spurs and stud chains!!! You cannot regulate STUPID otherwise we could spay a neuter a LOT of people!!:no:

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4100695]
I
Now, for laughs, let’s look at the flip side. A world without domestic animals, which is evidently what PETA wants. Oh, they’re OK if they’re “running free” and not “enslaved” by evil humankind. How empty would our lives be? No pet dogs, cats, horses, gerbils, birds to enrich our lives and love? No delicious beef, poultry or pork?

Sorry, BocaBurgers don’t cut it for me.[/QUOTE]\
LOL! The world did such a good job without us poor humans, that the dinosaurs died out without us! Oops, must have been Global Warming from all the noxious gas they all expelled! ( OK, I call them Farts :smiley: )

I apologize for the Smart A** comments. I find this whole issue so very scary! I am scared for the number of people who still do not believe the propoganda!:no:

Okay, you’re making it too easy for me to be, well, me (and that’s not a good thing). :: walks up to guillotine and puts head in :: Of course it’s helpful because, by gosh, you wrote it! :: waits for the blade to drop ::

Except, see, your idea of cruelty and abusive may not be the universal. For instance, to use an example in this discussion: after you get rid of the not-traditional-cattle-prods-but-electrical-devices, will you be coming after my electric fences? The canine electric collars Arizona DQ mentions?

I’ll fight ya with pistols at dawn over my electric fence. :wink: It’s solar powered, there’s no PVC, no treated wood, no wood at all, so it’s got some green tendencies going on that I love (ah, yes, there is a steel component, so it’s not totally green, that’s true). Getting zapped, which Drummer does regularly, does not produce a stress-reaction in Drummer; sometimes he doesn’t apprear to even feel it, sometimes he flinches, and sometimes, because he’s Drummer, after all, he reacts like Fred Sanford sans the hand over the heart and the "You hear that, Elizabeth? I’m coming.

So, is a momentary flinch the result of cruelty? Is an electric fence abusive? Because if a cattle prod or other large animal electric device is de facto cruel, you’ll have to say my fence is.

Um - if you’re going to impose your legislation on this country, you might want to learn how to learn how to spell words like “chute”. It demonstrates an ignorance of the subject matter - and therefore brings into question your credibility.

I’m not sure why you want a law that requires people to give up ownership of their double decker horse trailers, either. How odd. Do you intend for the government to compensate these owners when you force them to give up their property?

You’re entitled to your personal beliefs - but you do not have the right to impose them on others. An electric fence can deliver quite a jolt or a wee one - but has prevented many an animal from hurting itself or others. Regular fences don’t always keep 'em in.

If you want to draft good legislation, you might want to delve deeper into the subjects than just a few videos.

[QUOTE=Quest52;4100670]
nope… its not a cattle prod. its a hand held very small device that is causing issues to push these animals out of the shoots. Feel free to PM and I’m sure I can scrounge up the videos.
But no… not a traditional cattle prod.

ETA: I PERSONALLY disagree with any sort of electric device uses on an animal, and PERSONALLY believe that it is abusive. That is something totally different than what I would ever try to push on a populous. (this is a totally different discussion of behavior and drive and R+, R-,P+,P- methods that are not the topic here)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4100670]
ETA: I PERSONALLY disagree with any sort of electric device uses on an animal, and PERSONALLY believe that it is abusive. [/QUOTE]

Sir, you are wearing your ignorance, no waving it, like a red flag.

I have horses that on AVERAGE weigh in at over 1/2 ton plus APIECE. They have appetites to match their size. They will literally walk through a 3 or 4 board fence to get to grass on the other side. (and they are not underfed, they are all in excellent flesh). So there is hot wire on the top of a good percentage of the fencing, which borders on a heavily travelled roadway.

I accidentally zap myself on it a regular basis. While unpleasant, it’s but a small price to pay for the peace of mind it provides. Thankfully, all the horses highly respect that little strand of hotwire, despite being zapped far less times than I ever have. Interestingly, zap one horse and the reaction of that horse makes an impression on ALL the others, (in effect teaching them each a lesson).

And you think that is cruel?

How about having them get loose and wandering down the road where they could get hit by a car?

Ever see a horse hit by a car? Maybe dragged down asphalt by a truck?

I have, and it is horrific.

So when I read your nincompoop statement that all electric devices are abusive I start to see red and write nasty notes to ignoramses like you.

Ladies like Beverly and J. Swan are too polite (and smarter than I am) to do this, but this morning after reading your stupid statement, forgive me for being rude, but I just gave up and started typing.

I would like to know where you grew up if you would be so kind to let us know. I would hazard a guess it was not anywhere near open countryside and daily interaction with large animals, was it?

People like you have good and kind intentions, but you have absolutely NO business getting involved in writing the least bit of legislation, and you would do the animals you are professing to help a favor if you would cease and desist in your efforts until after you reevaluate how much you DO NOT KNOW.

to the contrary… I have many extreme experiences with a variety of animals, areas and people.

I am no “ignoramus” and mistype chute because I was answering the post from my PDA. If its my misuse of a word that bothers you, I would implore you to pick on other things.

Since you all do choose to veer off the path of the HSUS to attack my statements that I said were personal feelings, I will back some. If you would like to have a discussion about positive punishment and animals, please send me a PM, its ne of my favorite topics to debate about. It was assumed that I created legislation upon watching a few “skillfully” rendered videos… which is not the case. I can give you instant gratification to see said videos to show that I am not speaking of cattle prods. The videos are for examples on a website, not what I based my collaboration upon. I went to them, I saw the handheld shocking devices, I saw them used, I’ve seen what they do to the animals physically. But I didn’t think this was a thread about my personal accomplishments. I’m secure in my university schooling and my animal training and management abilities, as so has every university, training program, zoo, wildlife park, entertainment venue etc… been with my knowledge and performance. But again… back onto the topic of HSUS

Again, if my posts were read in the entirety, you would see that I have my own views and that I draw them separately from what I would ever even attempt to hold on the general populous. It should not be a bashing of my personal views, nor yours, but a discussion about the state of the HSUS and where its going, where it has been, and how it can be changed.