say no to Ellen DeGeneres support of HSUS

[CarrieK]

So, is that a yes or a no about electric fences?

See, you have faith in yourself and your group and the righteousness (the use if this word is not meant as a back-handed slam at all, honestly) of your work. Fair 'nuff.

The thing is, I don’t have faith. Why? Because people in these groups are far removed from farm and country life. Yes, they “see” but they haven’t “experienced” and that is a significant difference. Because it’s a short step from banning electrical devices used for moving and herding to banning electrical devices used for containing. A jolt is a jolt is a jolt, isn’t it? If it’s cruel and abusive to jolt cattle to control them, isn’t it cruel and abusive to jolt a horse or a dog to control them?

So, again, does your group intend to move from banning hand held electric devices for use on cattle to training collars for dogs to electric fences for horses and other livestock?

BTW, I didn’t mention the typo because, well, it’s a typo. But it’s a pretty telling and Freudian one, doncha think ? (Freudian in the sense of the revealing of the subconscious, not sexual.)

[D_BaldStockings]

And FWIW, it is populace -nevermind.

Changing something that is inherently wrong is like remodeling a home with extensive dry rot or termite damage: better to abandon/demolish and start over with a good foundation, so to speak.

All the training in the world will not make a mule into a Thoroughbred. (nothing against mules, you can’t make a TB into a good mule, either!)

[Tantivy1]

[QUOTE=CarrieK;4102614]
See, you have faith in yourself and your group and the righteousness (the use if this word is not meant as a back-handed slam at all, honestly) of your work. Fair 'nuff.

The thing is, I don’t have faith. Why? Because people in these groups are far removed from farm and country life. Yes, they “see” but they haven’t “experienced” …it’s a short step from banning electrical devices used for moving and herding to banning electrical devices used for containing. )[/QUOTE]

Thank-you Carrie K. for summing up so well what could so easily happen.

<signed>
Equally “Faithless” in VA

[MandyVA]

If people put a fraction of the energy and thought into actually participating in the legislative process as they’re putting into this thread, you would have nothing to worry about.

Like some of you, I lobby in state legislatures IRL. Not on animal issues…but I spend the majority of my waking hours either writing legislation, reading bills, writing amendments, meeting with legislators, giving “expert testimony”, or traveling to do one of those things.

The legislative process is just like litigation. You have a proponent of a bill, like HSUS wanting to ban puppy mills or whatever. And defense counsel, who are dog breeders or privacy advocates or whomever. Just like in a legal proceeding, the prosectution give their side and the defense gives their side. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Judges are there to hear both sides and find the truth. So are legislators.

For all my meetings and letters and testimony, I’m just giving my side. If you care about this powerful HSUS and what it can do to you through your state legislature, then for gods sake call your legislators, or better yet go. Sign in. Give your three minutes of testimony. Legislators don’t know if you don’t tell them. Even well-intentioned legislation can miss something that is important. Hell half of what I do is stand up and say wait, you didn’t mean to include/exclude this part!

Stop cyring about how scary HSUS or the HSUS supporters are and just pay attention. The legislative process is nothing to fear. Go participate. And I have to agree with a few posters, that if a fringe group sometimes goes too far but overall brings good attention to an issue, you shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. And wake up already, it hardly ever, in the states, has anything to do with money. I don’t give any money to state legislators and yet I have passed or killed many bills. Logic is your friend.

[Tantivy1]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4102536]
to the contrary… I have many extreme experiences with a variety of animals, areas and people.".[/QUOTE]

You did not answer my question.

Experiences? and extreme ones? Somehow I get the feeling yuor have them filed away somewhere… I shall more clearly phrase my question…have you lived in the country for any length of time (as in years) with daily contact with animals?

I am no “ignoramus” and mistype chute because I was answering the post from my PDA. If its my misuse of a word that bothers you, I would implore you to pick on other things."

I didn’t even mention the word “chute” and how you spelled it because I asumed you were intelligent enough that it was indeed a mere typo.

HOWEVER, and a very telling point on your part here, you think my acccusation was related to your spelling when it had NOTHING to do with how you spelled the word…and you missed my point ENTIRELY. <SIGH>

As to the videos you speak of, is it possible to provide us all with a link here so we can see them for ourselves?

“I’m secure in my university schooling and my animal training and management abilities, as so has every university, training program, zoo, wildlife park, entertainment venue etc… been with my knowledge and performance. But again…”

Congratulations on your successful hard work with animals…but again, have you ever owned and been soley responsible for the daily care of some farm animals for a length of time? Or have you received all your training at some university?

"back onto the topic of HSU…but a discussion about the state of the HSUS and where its going, where it has been, and how it can be changed

Well, from what I gathered your personal views were going to be used in conjunction with HSUS to help formulate legislation.

And I do think others have described the true intent and the devious machinations of both HSUS and PETA far better than I am able to.

The way I see it, you get your electrical equipment ban…and I won’t be able to safely turn my horses out on pasture.

And by the time you legally define exactly what can and cannot be used in whatever of a hundred different situations, your efforts will probably have in some way shape or form impinged upon MY HORSES FREEDOM.

[Quest52]

[QUOTE=MandyVA;4102859]

If you care about this powerful HSUS and what it can do to you through your state legislature, then for gods sake call your legislators, or better yet go. Sign in. Give your three minutes of testimony. Legislators don’t know if you don’t tell them. Even well-intentioned legislation can miss something that is important. Hell half of what I do is stand up and say wait, you didn’t mean to include/exclude this part!

Stop cyring about how scary HSUS or the HSUS supporters are and just pay attention. The legislative process is nothing to fear. Go participate. And I have to agree with a few posters, that if a fringe group sometimes goes too far but overall brings good attention to an issue, you shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. And wake up already, it hardly ever, in the states, has anything to do with money. I don’t give any money to state legislators and yet I have passed or killed many bills. Logic is your friend. ;)[/QUOTE]

thank you.

[Quest52]

This will be the last time I address anything directed at me instead of the topic…

[QUOTE=Tantivy1;4102900]

have you lived in the country for any length of time (as in years) with daily contact with animals? [/QUOTE]
yes. I have had horses since I was 6 years old. I have always had domestic dogs and cats in the house. I also held a job where I lived on a compound with 50 big cats, one elephant, 14 monkeys, 2 apes, a variety of exotic birds, a wolf and two bears.

HOWEVER, and a very telling point on your part here, you think my accusation was related to your spelling when it had NOTHING to do with how you spelled the word…and you missed my point ENTIRELY. <SIGH>

I did not miss your point entirely. I’m sorry you’re becoming so exhasterbated with me. I assumed, in correctly it seems, that you were thinking I was SOOOO stupid as to now know the equipment that is used in those gosh-darn-hootie rodeos. <SIGH>

As to the videos you speak of, is it possible to provide us all with a link here so we can see them for ourselves?

I’ll get a link to some when I get home. From here many websites are blocked.

Congratulations on your successful hard work with animals…but again, have you ever owned and been solely responsible for the daily care of some farm animals for a length of time? Or have you received all your training at some university?

Did I just say University? I thought the laundry list was enough. I guess not. On top of the animals listed above that were taken care of in a 10 person community that we were exclusive to… I have also been the trainer of 10 FEI stallions, 15 rodeo ropers/racers, 2 Young Rider Dressage horses, 1 Chimpanzee, 2 goats, 4 dogs, and one elephant names Bubbles. And those are JUST the animals off the top of my little head that I can think of to appease you right now that I was solely responsible for, at one time or another.

Well, from what I gathered your personal views were going to be used in conjunction with HSUS to help formulate legislation.

Again, you gather incorrectly, but this is what a discussion (without all the snark) is really for. I don’t think that everyone should have my view. Or even if everyone did have my view would it be good. I create legislation and edit things and lobby for laws that I thin would assist the entire population. I don’t think my way is the right way or the only way, I do think that there are rules that need to be amended and adjusted to move along a more humane path though.

The way I see it, you get your electrical equipment ban…and I won’t be able to safely turn my horses out on pasture.

in no place have I said that I would ever propose or back or whatever an electrical equipment ban. The law I wrote up was dealing with animals in entertainment and a hand held shocking device… this is not Suzie on the farm with 50 head, or Matt at Buck-N-Go trying to get horses to see the outsides of stalls without killing themselves or each other.

And by the time you legally define exactly what can and cannot be used in whatever of a hundred different situations, your efforts will probably have in some way shape or form impinged upon MY HORSES FREEDOM.

thats the spirit… no law is better than something. All those laws that are already out there, that give you and your animals the freedom you so SHOUT……
If something ever does impinge on something you think you deserve, in the horse world or otherwise… you have senators, and governors and legislators and lobbyist EVERYWHERE that WANT to hear from you.

Now… enough about me… how about we actally talk about the OP?

[JellyBeanQueen]

Puppy mills are different than your one private breed specific breeders. Puppy mills usualy have many various breeds (or many of one breed) and breed as much as they can and not nessesarily selling all of them or aclimating them to humans, or even care for thier basic needs because there is to many of them to keep up… Many Puppy mills are hgihly understaffed, not very discriminant of genetic problems when breeding (ie St. Bernards with hip dysplacia) and keep these puppies cooped up in cages where they cannot get the exercise they need for devoping bones. They often end up wth joint or bone problems. Many of the puppies never see the outside of a cage.

I am not dogging those who do breed discriminatly, with good husbandry, raise the puppies in a good environment that allows normal development of the body to occur. I had a freind who breeds Jack Russells. She has one female and one male and gets 2 littlers a year. THe puppies are kept in a large box untill they can begin to move about on thier own. Then she has a “play pen” for them to run about in. Once they are weaned they are sold but they still have access to the “play pen” and they get to go outside when she is outside herself. They are human acclimated and are vaccinated (with the vaccines they can have at thier age), dewormed, fed a good diet, and etc. I have nothing against those type of ppl.

[JSwan]

I’m not crying about anything. Someone started a thread for the purpose of discussion and I participated. I have no use for HSUS since Wayne Pacelle took over. It’s no longer the animal welfare group it used to be.

Many many foxhunters are involved in the legislative process; from conservation, to animal welfare, to sporting issues.

And one of the things we keep encountering is the amount of misinformation promulgated by HSUS.

I’m not interested in a debate, because my mind is set. And I’m certainly not interested in a debate with a poster who can’t even use the English language correctly. (not you)

I went from being a strong supporter of HSUS to someone who has no use for the group.

I didn’t change - HSUS did.

And my family no longer supports the group either. My mother worked dog rescue for Katrina - and that opened her eyes about HSUS. She didn’t believe me until she saw it with her own eyes.

Just because some people find HSUS to be an animal rights Enron doesn’t mean we’re not informed citizens. It also doesn’t mean we’re not strong supporters of animal welfare. We just don’t think HSUS has the answers, and they’re playing fast and loose with donor money and the truth.

If you disagree - that’s fine. But again - it doesn’t mean we’re not informed and made an intelligent decision to distance ourselves from this group.

You should also remember that many people are very much involved with their legislature. They just happen to think that they can get through the day without HSUS force feeding them their opinions.

As far as the person who considers the discussion “snark” and feels that she’s been singled out - nothing could be further from the truth. Of all the forums on this BB, the hunting forum is one devoid of personal attacks or petty disagreements. It’s full of witty, intelligent, accomplished and passionate people. And they can also tell when they’re dealing with someone who is long on agenda and short on facts.

I’m still trying to figure out how the government intends to force people to give up ownership of their double decker horse trailers.

@MandyVA;4102859

If people put a fraction of the energy and thought into actually participating in the legislative process as they’re putting into this thread, you would have nothing to worry about.

[Cielo_Azure]

“- rules about dog tie-outs and chaining”

mmm. My neighbor (in N. Georgia) uses dog houses and chains when he goes to work. He has three dogs, each with their own doghouse and chain. Then he comes home and they all go in the house. These are happy dogs, they are not treated badly, they are outside during the day and then with him, when he comes home from work. I think they probably like it better outside during the day (chained) then locked in the doublewide (but I could be wrong).

This is not how I treat my dogs and if someone tells me aboiut chaining a dog, I would cringe but honestly…get a life. Many dogs that are chained for short periods of time while the owners are out, and they are not mistreated!

The problem with laws like this is that they play on our “emotions.” They don’t deal with the realty of the pet that is loved, spends most of their time with their owner but spends some hours a day on a chain. This is probably the most common scenario for use of a chain with a dog. Dogs such as this, they are glad to be outside, and happy to be outside.

But someone wants to pass a law. Then what? More power to AC and the police to control, to come onto private property without a warrent, to harrass, and to contain populations of people that might not be PC/conform to society’s norms and to create fear.

[S_A_McKee]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4102981]

I did not miss your point entirely. I’m sorry you’re becoming so exhasterbated with me. I assumed, in correctly it seems, that you were thinking I was SOOOO stupid as to now know the equipment that is used in those gosh-darn-hootie rodeos. <SIGH>

Did I just say University? I thought the laundry list was enough. I guess not. On top of the animals listed above that were taken care of in a 10 person community that we were exclusive to… I have also been the trainer of 10 FEI stallions, 15 rodeo ropers/racers, 2 Young Rider Dressage horses, 1 Chimpanzee, 2 goats, 4 dogs, and one elephant names Bubbles. And those are JUST the animals off the top of my little head that I can think of to appease you right now that I was solely responsible for, at one time or another.

in no place have I said that I would ever propose or back or whatever an electrical equipment ban. The law I wrote up was dealing with animals in entertainment and a hand held shocking device… this is not Suzie on the farm with 50 head, or Matt at Buck-N-Go trying to get horses to see the outsides of stalls without killing themselves or each other.

thats the spirit… no law is better than something. All those laws that are already out there, that give you and your animals the freedom you so SHOUT……

Now… enough about me… how about we actally talk about the OP?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you did miss the point. “exhasterbated” What???

So that we evaluate your experience can you supply the names of the 10 FEI stallions that you trained and in what divisions did those stallions compete?

Can you explain a bit about the device you want to ban? You see, it’s possible that show horses could be viewed as ‘being in entertainment’ and I want to make sure that I’m not using anything that would upset you.

Sorry but sometimes no law is a lot better than a bad one.

No, more about you. You’re a lot more entertaining than the OP.

[Quest52]

oh Im done… you’re being a twit.

I dont have to qualify myself to you and find it funny you keep asking for more and more qualifications. Want me to send you a signed USDF Omnibus with my photo on it to prove myself further??? Give me a break.

Back into the world of legislation… if you find a proposed law and decide to speak out on it (because I don’t pretend to be perfect) maybe we’ll meet and have an intelligent conversation and not something to gets so glib.

Thanks for making this particular board such a joy to participate in. I’m all about a great conversation… but that was ended long ago.

eta: at least I see you act outlandishly and rude in all your posts in this forum… at least Im not alone with the attach of the snark.

I really do hope somewhere in this thread someone benefited one way or the other.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4103352]

I really do hope somewhere in this thread someone benefited one way or the other.[/QUOTE]

You have no idea.

You just reinforced my opinion of HSUS.

[cssutton]

I wonder if the guy that found the filly that won the Preakness this weekend is shy about telling us that he is the guy that found her.

Most who have accomplished anything of significance are not shy about saying so.

Not braggarts, but just factual.

CSSJR

[cssutton]

And for the “no laws are better than …” whatever:

There is already a law against ever single thing you can do that is harmful to an animal.

Putting a dog on a chain is not cruel. Denying the dog food and water, shade in the hot weather or refuge from snow and rain in the winter is cruel.

There are laws agains cruelty.

Shocking an animal with a prod?

How do you get cattle through the chute and into the sale barn?

How do you break a hound from running deer?

Oh, I know. You talk sweet to him like Obummer, the Marxist, is going to talk to the North Koreans. You can reason with anyone or anything if you are patient enough…and if he doesn’t get pissed off at you and kill you before you have finished saying your piece.

Some times you have to be firm. The trick in being a good horseman or houndman is to know when to be strict and when to take a milder route.

CSSJR

[ThreeFigs]

I hate it when snarks attach.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=cssutton;4103440]
Shocking an animal with a prod?

How do you get cattle through the chute and into the sale barn?

CSSJR[/QUOTE]

You don’t…

I was raised on a cattle ranch. You have to put cattle in a chute alot…for vaccines, worming, dipping, branding. You can take a 2 X 4 to them and if they don’t want to move, they won’t. A prod is the only thing that gets them moving. We don’t rope and “steer rastle” them anymore.

[Go_Fish]

I get a lot of literature from PETA and HSUS (unsolicited). I gather it up, light it on fire, and dance around the flames in my underwear.

[S_A_McKee]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4103352]
. at least Im not alone with the attach of the snark.

I really do hope somewhere in this thread someone benefited one way or the other.[/QUOTE]

‘attach of the snark’ Huh?

I do hope you’re a bit more careful when you’re writing all that law stuff. LOL
Sure, lots of folks were entertained so I guess that’s as good a benefit as any.

I was ready to wager large sums that you wouldn’t be able to provide names of all those FEI horses you trained. Good one !!!

[Donella]

Can anyone tell me where it states on HSUS or PETA websites that they are absolutely against all animal ownership and the keeping of pets ? Where it states that they are aiming to have it abolished (and even if they were, do you guys REALLY think that something that radical is going to pass???)?? Because I notice that they are tackling the issues that need tackling most, problems with factory farming, research ect.

It just seems like the only arguement anyone has against them is that they are against pet ownership and are trying to put and end to it. Yeah, I kinda doubt that that is even on their agenda considering all the other, must more real welfare issues out there.

Honestly though, even if they do not support the ownership of animals, that does not discredit the work they are doing to do something about the billions of animals that live their lives in abject misery so that we can eat them and pour chemicals in their eyes ect ect. Nobody is going to agree with everyone perfectly on everything. If they don’t like that I have a pet dog…oh well. Thats A ok with me, at least it comes from a place of respect for animal life even if I disagree with the practicality of it.