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say no to Ellen DeGeneres support of HSUS

Hunting
#121

MandyVA- Actually, I think most posters here put way more time and effort into the actual nuts and bolts of the legislative process than in posting to this board. This board is pretty much entertainment- and hopefully some education- but I don’t think anyone suffers from any delusions that discussions here will meaningfully effect change. You’re singing to the choir- but your post has great value, I hope everyone reads it. Except for your misstatement- no one here is crying or whining about HSUS. We are simply stating that we oppose HSUS, and providing our reasons.

Quest52- I’m afraid that at least for me, your credibility keeps on sinking. You chide people for not reading your posts in their entirety (I certainly did before responding and haven’t noticed anyone else missing anything)- and yet you didn’t take your own advice- no one called you an ‘ignoramus.’ When asked direct and honest questions, instead of answering, you’re getting all defensive about snarkiness that does not, in my opinion, exist. Maybe you are reading ‘tone’ into posts that isn’t there. Be that as it may- your vague statements as to your qualifications aren’t convincing. And people who draft legislation know the importance of precise wordsmithing AND spelling- and to be honest, claiming that your misspelling of chute came from sending from your PDA is pretty lame, in my opinion.

Several people here have asked you direct questions, and you haven’t answered them. You claim to want legimate discussion, but you aren’t keeping up your end of the bargain- so maybe you really weren’t after a real, civilized debate of the issue, after all.

#122

Donella, have you ever heard Ingrid Newkirk (President and, I believe, founder of PETA) speak? The woman is certifiable.

Google PETA and read the con as well as the pro entries. You might be surprised.

#123

Donella- just google on Ingrid Newkirk and Wayne Pacelle in addition to the PETA and HSUS sites and you will find decades’ worth of quotes on the subject. As I posted earlier, HSUS has in recent years hidden or removed the more radical info on their web site- but frankly, those of us who have been involved in animal welfare and tracked these organizations know what they’ve said over the years- and we haven’t seen them retract any of those statements. If you really want to dig, pony up the bucks to get into the Washington Post and New York Times archives and you’ll find plenty of information.

Let me tell you a little tale about PETA. Couple of decades ago, two women went to the Old Dominion Kennel Club annual dog show one fine day, and ‘freed’ four show dogs- as I recall, three Great Danes and a Doberman. These dogs were in their crates happy as clams, doing their show dog thing, and once let loose without their owners/handlers in sight, they panicked and bolted. Three of the four were killed by cars on the road. The women were arrested, stated they were with PETA and doing the right thing for these dogs, and would happily go to jail for it, or words to that effect. PETA denied any involvement or any connection to these two women- and then quietly hired the attorneys and footed the bill for their defense. (Don’t take my word for it, check the Washington Post archives).

Would you like your dog- or horse- given his ‘freedom’ in such a manner? I sure wouldn’t. But it is pretty typical animal rights advocate behavior. They don’t give a damn what happens to the animals, they just want to make their weird points about a petless, meatless society. Go read Ingrid Newkirk’s bio and many quotes. Really. And go back and read earlier posts in this thread.

#124

[QUOTE=S A McKee;4103773]

I was ready to wager large sums that you wouldn’t be able to provide names of all those FEI horses you trained. Good one !!![/QUOTE]

I’m poor and in law school… you put up the money and I’ll give you all the names you want. I think its ridiculous I need to verify every single credential I have.

The exotics I worked with were with T.I.G.E.R.S. in South Carolina.
The marine mammal facility I trained at was Dolphin Quest: Oahu
The zoo I trained at was Brookfield Zoo, Chicago: Marine Mammals
My two from 3 year old up YR horses were Queoist bred by Jolly Jumper and Fandango bred by Le Mexico.
I’ll go ahead and give you all the stallion names (because those breedings I don’t just carry in my head) once you offer up your wager.

Again, I don’t say i know everything. I’m always learning, always reading an always educating myself on new ways to do things both in life, and in training. But to ask for a decent debate or conversation about the pros and cons of people like the HSUS is what I thought I was coming here for… not a personal attack. The company does a lot of strange things behind the curtain and in front of it. But its the people with the strong opinions that need to voice them with poise.

All I came here to do was
1- hope to possibly show that the HSUS isn’t all bad
2- attempt to engage people into doing something on a real level to possibly fix what is not working for them.

… not play Quest’s 150 weird animals she has trained

#125

No one has stated HSUS is “bad”.

Everyone here is very concerned about animal welfare. I don’t know any foxhunter that isn’t a very strong and vocal supporter of good animal welfare legislation - including strong punishment for animal abusers.

But in case you haven’t noticed it - this is the hunting forum. And HSUS is actively, and successfully banning hunting. They’re going state by state, and species by species. Using lies, abuse of the ballot initiative, manipulation of the public, and more lies lies lies.

And for this former supporter of HSUS, it’s pretty sad to see them turn on the very people that are responsible for all conservation work done in the US for the past 100 years.

You’re not going to get any words of support about HSUS from people who have been targeted by them. We’re not animal abusers, we are dedicated to the preservation of the natural world, and we have done nothing wrong.

In my state, houndsmen have donated many thousands of acres of conservation easements (and not land they hunt on necessarily), restored and protected wildlife populations, pay for all conservation work with their hunting licenses, assist wildlife biologists in their research on various species, are vocal supporters of animal welfare, and are devoted and committed to preserving open space for ALL to enjoy.

And I’m fed up with HSUS lying about us.

And you know what? A lot of people are starting to feel the same way, even if they don’t hunt or don’t approve of hunting.

Get out in the woods and spend some time with us - learn the truth.

#126

Donella:

You could look here: http://www.hsus.org/about_us/statements/

But this is the shined up public statement made to raise money. They admit that it was written by hired guns (read spinners).

Get an analysis of their financial statement and you will see that they bleed for animals just as Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson bleed for their fellow black man.

Oh, excuse my bad sentence construction. They don’t bleed for the black man, rather they bleed the back man.

It is all about money.

The following is something I wrote for another group. All of this can be verified if you will do a little homework:

=============================================
HSUS is not an animal welfare organization.

HSUS is a political activist organization whose goal is to destroy the bonds between man and his animals, whether they be pets, part of sporting life such as hunting dogs or race horses. Or whether they are part of man’s economic life as in the case of farm animals.

Although HSUS has said in statements that they support pet ownership, there is a difference between their public statements when they are encouraging contributions and their statements at various other times.

Several years ago, they used to print their mission statement in their calendar. I believe they discontinued that in recent years. However, in past years their published mission statement was for the elimination of circuses, aquariums, dog racing, horse racing, the breeding of pure bred animals (which would include pure bred dogs, cattle, race horses, pigs, chickens, etc.).

That mission statement also made it clear that HSUS was against pet ownership.

In a 1994 book, hunting writer Ted Kerasote reported the following exchange with Wayne Pacelle, then affiliated with the Fund for Animals:
“How about pets, Wayne? Would you envision a future with no pets in the world?”
“I wouldn’t say that I envision that, no. If I had my personal view, perhaps that might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born. It’s not something I strive for, though. If people were very responsible, and didn’t do manipulative breeding, and cared for animals in all senses, and accounted for their nutritional needs as well as their social and psychological needs, then I think it could be an appropriate thing. I’m not sure. I think it’s one of those things that we’ll decide later in society. I think we’re still far from it.”

I would suggest that anyone wishing to learn the truth about HSUS go to the following link, which has a list of 7 “Things You Did Not Know About the HSUS” of which I include only two:
http://consumerfreedom.com/article_detail.cfm/article/184
Here are the two I chose for you:

  1. HSUS’s senior management includes a former spokesman for the Animal Liberation Front (ALF), a criminal group designated as “terrorists” by the FBI. HSUS president Wayne Pacelle hired John “J.P.” Goodwin in 1997, the same year Goodwin described himself as “spokesperson for the ALF” while he fielded media calls in the wake of an ALF arson attack at a California veal processing plant. In 1997, when asked by reporters for a reaction to an ALF arson fire at a farmer’s feed co-op in Utah (which nearly killed a family sleeping on the premises), Goodwin replied, “We’re ecstatic.” That same year, Goodwin was arrested at a UC Davis protest celebrating the 10-year anniversary of an ALF arson at the university that caused $5 million in damage. And in 1998, Goodwin described himself publicly as a “former member of ALF.”

4)According to a 2008 Los Angeles Times investigation, less than 12 percent of money raised for HSUS by California telemarketers actually ends up in HSUS’s bank account. The rest is kept by professional fundraisers. And if you exclude two campaigns run for HSUS by the “Build-a-Bear Workshop” retail chain, which consisted of the sale of surplus stuffed animals (not really “fundraising”), HSUS’s yield number shrinks to just 3 percent. Sadly, this appears typical. In 2004, HSUS ran a telemarketing campaign in Connecticut with fundraisers who promised to return a minimum of zero percent of the proceeds. The campaign raised over $1.4 million. Not only did absolutely none of that money go to HSUS, but the group paid $175,000 for the telemarketing work.

Wayne Pacelle is one of the smoothest operators in public life today. He is a stategist in the image of Obama. He makes everything look completely logical and desirable.

#127

All goes to credibility. Once you make a claim that you trained 10 FEI stallions you open yourself up to questions and verification. It’s the only way to decide if you have any credentials to back up your story.

Fandango was a 1987 model so no records available except for a recording at USEF ( and he’s a gelding, thought I asked about FEI stallions)
Queoist, no record at USEF.

One more time, can you explain what the device is that caused you to write legislation? Did you post a link to a copy of the proposed legislation? If you did and I missed it, my apologies.

#128

[QUOTE=Quest52;4103984]
All I came here to do was 1- hope to possibly show that the HSUS isn’t all bad [/QUOTE]

I hate to tell you the bad news, but if anything, after reading the revealing posts about the truth of HSUS, you have not succeeded and furthermore, I would like to be the first to personally thank-you for reawakening my dislike of them.

:slight_smile:

Out of curiousity, after YOU read them, what is your opinion of HSUS? does it not cause you to question them to some degree at all, or do you still feel the degree of same admiration for them?

PS I require a wider spectrum when writing than just small v. large caps; hence:

small caps = conversational tone of voice
large caps = only an added emphasis on a word(s)
shouting = S!H!O!U!T!I!N!G

Also, you keep wanting to retrun to the OP’s initial post, but it touched on HSUS and being as HSUS touches on all of us and our animals, I feel the direction the thread has taken is perfectly acceptable. It may have drifted a little…but it is still in the HSUS current.

#129

Fabulous post - you earned yourself a piece of pie at the hound show!

#130

[QUOTE=Quest52;4103984]
All I came here to do was
2- attempt to engage people into doing something on a real level to possibly fix what is not working for them.[/QUOTE]

You win on this score though!

After some thought, I am seriously considering getting involved at some level with a movement against HSUS.

And I sincerely thank-you for contributing to this thread enough that I might…I might just get off my fat butt and take some action against what I view as the scumbags at HSUS.

Thanks also to those who provided the cogent well-thought out posts about the truth behind the HSUS curtain of lies and the links to sites where it can be verified.

#131

[QUOTE=Quest52;4100526]
So that when I write the bill, and I edit the bill, and I lobby the bill, I know I’m making a difference, even if it is through the assistance of the evil HSUS. QUOTE]

You know the old saying: When you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

If you are so determined to help animals, why do you need HSUS? Just go it alone and don’t associate with such filfth.

You might come out with some integrity at the end of the day.

#132

If you would like to have a discussion about positive punishment and animals, please send me a PM, its ne of my favorite topics to debate about.

More like masterdebate. :no:
I fail to see how working with exotics and marine life equates with [personal experience with working livestock.
What I see is a very eager and opinionated second year law student/clerk with little practical knowledge yet. Who volunteers with the HSUS and hasn’t seemed to yet see them with a removed and objective eye.
You’ve seemingly had a very busy life for a young age…and possibly privileged also as compared to the average person in the country. Youth and lack of experience and privilege is a tough platform to preach about farming and rural life. Once you get your degree and get out on your own on your own income…you’ll see life is a tad different than it looks like from this level. Unfortunately you may never fully understand the day to day life of a working farm, but then the world is full of those without the working practical knowledge telling those who live that life how to do it better. :sigh:

FWIW…lots of us on here lobby as well. A lot. From a lifelong background and experience of what we’re lobbying for. Please do not consider others foolish because they’ve had a different upbringing than you and can speak from experience as opposed to online propaganda and text books.

#133

Since I’m the OP, I have to say I agree. I wanted to alert people about the fundraiser…discussing WHY opposing the HSUS is a good idea is a perfect way for the thread to drift.

I’m just still sad that many of Ellen’s fans will bid on items, thinking they’re doing a good thing.

#134

[QUOTE=JellyBeanQueen;4103042]
Puppy mills are different than your one private breed specific breeders. Puppy mills usualy have many various breeds (or many of one breed) and breed as much as they can and not nessesarily selling all of them or aclimating them to humans, or even care for thier basic needs because there is to many of them to keep up… Many Puppy mills are hgihly understaffed, not very discriminant of genetic problems when breeding (ie St. Bernards with hip dysplacia) and keep these puppies cooped up in cages where they cannot get the exercise they need for devoping bones. They often end up wth joint or bone problems. Many of the puppies never see the outside of a cage.

I am not dogging those who do breed discriminatly, with good husbandry, raise the puppies in a good environment that allows normal development of the body to occur. I had a freind who breeds Jack Russells. She has one female and one male and gets 2 littlers a year. THe puppies are kept in a large box untill they can begin to move about on thier own. Then she has a “play pen” for them to run about in. Once they are weaned they are sold but they still have access to the “play pen” and they get to go outside when she is outside herself. They are human acclimated and are vaccinated (with the vaccines they can have at thier age), dewormed, fed a good diet, and etc. I have nothing against those type of ppl.[/QUOTE]

Legitimate breeders object to puppy mills for exactly the same reasons. The resulting puppies have a multitude of physical (and often mental) problems from the breeding and handling practices. It’s a black eye to the dog breeding world. I’d wager that puppy mill and indiscriminately bred BYB dogs make up a majority of dogs in shelters and pounds.

A word on your friend’s breeding practices. Maybe it’s different for JRT’s, but asking a bitch to raise two litters a year seems excessive. Mom would breed a GSD bitch once a year at most. She had several bitches, so when she had more than one litter a year, it was from different dams. Oh, and all her breeding dogs were OFA certified. She also insisted that anyone bringing a bitch to her for breeding also present proof of healthy hips and elbows. She would NOT breed to any animal with bad hips or elbows. Or temperament.

Now and then, a pup would show up, despite all the precautions, with dysplastic hips. That pup would be neutered and sold as a pet.

When a spokesman for HSUS says they’d like to see no more puppies or kittens born, it tells me that even the ethical breeders are in the gunsights of HSUS.

#135

She might actually be getting credit for it- several law schools have hooked up with HSUS and offer clinical courses representing and working for HSUS. While on the one hand it irritates me, on the other, it is usually easier to litigate against students and their professors :wink:

MandyVA- while I appreciate your perspective on lobbying, I am afraid it is not consistent with my experience and observations on the federal level. It is hardly as straighforward as a powerful and well-funded ($200+ mill in assets)organization presenting their version of the facts and perspective to legislators, those who oppose HSUS’s position presenting theirs, and the legislator assessing both versions equally and objectively and deciding how to vote. There is way too much BS going on in Congress for that and votes, particularly on animal rights and welfare issues, seem to be decided less by an objective analysis of the facts than by the power and image of those lobbying on either side, the affect on and perception of their constituency and the politicking BS that is part and parcel of everything they do. Now I don’t know if I misinterpreted your post and if I did, I apologize but if the individual or small organization opposes legislation being lobbied by HSUS, an individual or small organization is going to make little headway opposing it unless they enlist another large powerful constituency to join them at least in most instances. I am not saying that you should not voice your opinion, but that that will hardly ensure an objective assessment by legislators.

#136

How interesting.

This just showed up on Free Republic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2254018/posts

CSSJR

If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor’s right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

#137

Can anyone tell me where it states on HSUS or PETA websites that they are absolutely against all animal ownership and the keeping of pets ? Where it states that they are aiming to have it abolished (and even if they were, do you guys REALLY think that something that radical is going to pass???)?? Because I notice that they are tackling the issues that need tackling most, problems with factory farming, research ect

Donella, these are direct quotes right from Peta and HSUS big wigs:

People with the time, money, love, and patience to make a lifetime commitment to an animal can make an enormous difference by adopting from shelters or rescuing animals from a perilous life on the street. But it is also important to stop manufacturing “pets,” thereby perpetuating a class of animals forced to rely on humans to survive." PETA pamphlet, Companion Animals: Pets or Prisoners?

But as the surplus of cats and dogs (artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship ­ enjoyment at a distance." Ingrid Newkirk, PETA vice-president, quoted in The Harper’s Forum Book, Jack Hitt, ed., 1989, p.223.

“Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation.” Ingrid Newkirk, national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Just Like Us? Harper’s, August 1988, p. 50.

“In a perfect world, all other than human animals would be free of human interference, and dogs and cats would be part of the ecological scheme.” PeTA’s Statement on Companion Animals.

“You don’t have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them … One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild … they would have full lives, not wasting at home for someone to come home in the evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV,” Ingrid Newkirk, national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Chicago Daily Herald, March 1, 1990.

“I don’t have a hands-on fondness for animals…To this day I don’t feel bonded to any non-human animal. I like them and I pet them and I’m kind to them, but there’s no special bond between me and other animals.” Wayne Pacelle quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 251.

“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. . One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.” Wayne Pacelle, Senior VP of Humane Society of the US, formerly of Friends of Animals and Fund for Animals, Animal People, May, 1993

When asked if he envisioned a future without pets, “If I had my personal view, perhaps that might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born.” Wayne Pacelle quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 266.

“[A]s the surplus of cats and dogs {artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship–enjoyment at a distance.” Ingrid Newkirk, “Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights”, Harper’s, August 1988, p. 50.

“The bottom line is that people don’t have the right to manipulate or to breed dogs and cats … If people want toys, they should buy inanimate objects. If they want companionship, they should seek it with their own kind,” Ingrid Newkirk, founder, president and former national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Animals, May/June 1993

“My goal is the abolition of all animal agriculture.” JP Goodwin, employed at the Humane Society of the US, formerly at Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade, as quoted on AR-Views, an animal rights Internet discussion group in 1996.

Deep down, I truly hope that oppression, torture and murder return to each uncaring human tenfold! I hope that fathers accidentally shoot their sons on hunting excursions, while carnivores suffer heart attacks that kill them slowly.
Every woman ensconced in fur should endure a rape so vicious that it scars them forever. While every man entrenched in fur should suffer an anal raping so horrific that they become disemboweled. Every rodeo cowboy and matador should be gored to death, while circus abusers are trampled by elephants and mauled by tigers. And, lastly, may irony shine its esoteric head in the form of animal researchers catching debilitating diseases and painfully withering away because research dollars that could have been used to treat them was wasted on the barbaric, unscientific practice vivisection." Gary Yourofsky, PeTA Humane Education Lecturer, quoted in the University of Southern Indiana Student Newspaper, The Shield, January 24, 2008

“The life of an ant and that of my child should be granted equal consideration.” Michael W. Fox, Scientific Director and former Vice President, The Humane Society of the United States, The Inhumane Society, New York, 1990

“Humane care (of animals) is simply sentimental, sympathetic patronage.” Dr. Michael W. Fox, Humane Society of the US, in 1988 Newsweek interview

“I despise ‘animal welfare.’ That’s like saying, ‘Let’s beat the slaves three times a week instead of five times a week’.” Gary Yourofsky, founder, Animals Deserve Adequate Protection Today and Tomorrow (ADAPTT), PeTA’s national lecturer

We would be foolish and silly not to unite with people in the public health sector, the environmental community, [and] unions, to try to challenge corporate agriculture." Wayne Pacelle, Senior VP Humane Society of the US, formerly of Friends of Animals and Fund for Animals, at the Animal Rights 2002" Convention, July 1, 2002.

“Arson, property destruction, burglary and threat are ‘acceptable crimes’ when used for the animal cause.” Alex Pacheco, co-founder of PETA. Quoted in an Associated Press News feature, January 3, 1989

“If an ‘animal abuser’ were killed in a research lab firebombing, I would unequivocally support that, too.” Gary Yourofsky, founder of Animals Deserve Adequate Protection Today and Tomorrow (ADAPTT), now employed as PeTA’s national lecturer

“A burning building doesn’t help melt people’s hearts, but times change and tactics, I’m sure, have to change with them. If you choose to carry out ALF-style actions, I ask you to please not say more than you need to, to think carefully who you trust, to learn all you can about how to behave if arrested, and so to try to live to fight another day.” Ingrid Newkirk, PeTA’s founder and president, Interview in ALF quarterly Bite Back, February, 2003

"If we really believe that animals have the same right to be free from pain and suffering at our hands, then, of course we’re going to be, as a movement, blowing things up and smashing windows … I think it’s a great way to bring about animal liberation … I think it would be great if all of the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories, and the banks that fund them exploded tomorrow. I think it’s perfectly appropriate for people to take bricks and toss them through the windows. … Hallelujah to the people who are willing to do it." Bruce Friedrich, PeTA’s director of Vegan Outreach, Animal Rights Conference, 2001

“I think [food producers] should appreciate that we’re only targeting their property. Because frankly I think it’s time to start targeting them.” Rodney Coronado, convicted felon for the 1992 firebombing of Michigan State University research facility (57 months in federal prison, 3 years probation), speaking at the “Conference on Organized Resistance,” American University, January 26, 2003.

“Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are ‘acceptable crimes’ when used for the animal cause.” Alex Pacheco, Director, PETA

Nobody doctored or changed these quotes…this is the HSUS and PeTA talking directly.
Please reconsider supporting them. The huge money making press whores like HSUS and PeTA are in this for 3 reasons:
Getting attention
Making money
They’re own insanity
They prey on those who donate with their hearts and not their heads…they have a PR machine that makes sure only the most emotional who probably won’t bother to learn more about them and will believe all the PR stuff is targeted. They make fools of their own donators. :no:

#138

That’s what I meant. Crazy on stilts.

Thanks for posting that, MistyBlue!

#139

MistyBlue:

I have read a lot and spent a lot of time on this topic over the past many years and I had seen most of these at one time or another over the years.

But your post is the best presentation I have ever seen on the topic.

You are to be congratulated for your smarts and your kindness in putting it all together for those of us without either the smarts or the energy.

Thank you. I am going to file this away for future reference.

CSSJR

If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor’s right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

#140

I raise my flask to you, Misty Blue!

Well done…POSTER MATERIAL?

Everyone SAVE IT but better yet, PASS IT ON!

I’ll shout that last one!

P!A!S!S I!T! O!N!

:slight_smile:

Comments, Quest52? or any questions?

Or will you ignore the facts?

Feel free to contribute if we are missing something here, please, or provide links. Thanks in advance.

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