Saying NO nicely

[CHT]

I am not sure how a flat out No would be either nice, nor helpful.

I like her as a student. I took her back as a student as I was still on crutches and had horses needing to get back into work and pay their bills, and it worked better to take her on rather than an unknown as she could catch/tack up with less involvement from me.

She has never pouted nor taken on “histrionics” beyond what I would expect from a teenager. She has never been manipulative, and she quickly found a new barn when I evicted her previously. I feel a lot has been added to her character by people that have never met her.

I do not want to board for her for two main reasons 1) I don’t think she can afford it and 2) The past history of poor judgement. I don’t want to give her those as reasons though, as I just want it to be a NO. but a nice no.

I don’t know if we will be taking on new boarders. A lot is up in the air. So much has changed in my life in the last 7 months.

[Rackonteur]

Is she legally and mentally competent to sign a contract?

Sometimes it’s nicer to NOT enable people.

@CHT

I don’t know if we will be taking on new boarders. A lot is up in the air. So much has changed in my life in the last 7 months.

Can you tell her, “A lot is up in the air. I can’t take on new boarders”?

[CHT]

Yep, that might be my “easy way out” answer for now! It is both true, and nice. Thanks!

I don’t see why she wouldn’t be able to sign a contract. She is an adult.

[OverandOnward]

I think this is the last observation I have … OP, you have clearly decided ‘no’ … and yet you have a list of rationalizations and reasons why you can’t make it firm.

You clearly see her as a very vulnerable person. I get that, I really do. But sometimes people aren’t as incapable of caring for themselves as we are thinking. Sometimes we are not even the people who are in the best position to help them.

Good luck, whatever you do. From your responses, I have a feeling she’ll be keeping a horse in your barn within the next few years. That’s certainly your prerogative.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

@CHT

hey, I am happy to keep teaching you and mentoring you, and I like you as a person, but I am not able to offer you board. Once you are ready to find a horse, let me know, and I can help find you a suitable barn in your budget.”

CHT, you know your friend best; but perhaps, this is how I might word it (obviously, again, you know how your friend reacts and reads into situations better than I). I am a chronic overthinker, bordering on feelings-of-abandonment / worlds-ending at times so can relate to those who are aware of their behaviour but struggle to overcome it. I also had a couple of BPD clients (chronic), and taught a few classes on dealing with APD/BPD as a focal point (in a previous life).

This is what I would, hypothetically, say:

“Hey! I do not have any boarding places available. I will definitely help you find a suitable boarding barn when you are ready. Meantime, I am happy to continue with lessons on my horses”

No ambiguity, no “I like you BUT” (devastating), and clear support. Insert any smilies at end if that’s how you roll. Or “looking forwards to ” etc.

Many BPD folks don’t consciously intend to be manipulative; it is just a coping mechanism for that desperate black spiral to comes with “oh god, they actually don’t like me”. Many are, unfortunately, chronically and /or destructively manipulative, but it sounds like your friend is just … at a bit of a loose end.

[fivestrideline]

@Old_Mac_Donald

. I will definitely help you find a suitable boarding barn when you are ready.

Great stuff above BUT I would absolutely NOT promise to help her find a barn.

OP evicted her (as a junior, but still).

Lesson girl is/was in trouble for nonpayment, enough to LOSE HER HORSE

OP, no matter your choices to let her come back and ride, do not put yourself into the position of being asked for references (barns so rarely do this, but people talk).
Because you’ll have to lie to the barn about her history OR try to find a way to say “no this girl can’t afford a horse, or board, or lessons, and didn’t when she bought the horse, and I won’t let her board here” while helping find her a stall? Not good.

I wouldn’t promise to help her find a spot for a horse, personally. This isn’t someone who is otherwise a stellar boarder who is moving, or stepping down from a full training program, or needing to retire a horse. This is a whole different can of worms.

[FjordBCRF]

@Old_Mac_Donald

Many BPD folks don’t consciously intend to be manipulative; it is just a coping mechanism for that desperate black spiral to comes with “oh god, they actually don’t like me”

Thank you for pointing this out. Again, I don’t know the ins and outs of BPD, just the few instances I’ve seen, but I never felt like the manipulation was intentional, just more of a mode of operation vs someone spending hours at home mapping out scenarios. I suspect that is part of why they are so good at it as well.

@CHT - if you help this person find a barn, you are risking your reputation.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Hmm yes good point

[anon15718925]

@fivestrideline

Lesson girl is/was in trouble for nonpayment, enough to LOSE HER HORSE

This to me seems like it should be a much bigger reason for pause than it is.

This, assuming I’ve got the timeline from the original posts on this thread correct, is not something that happened when Lesson Girl was a teenager and thus something that can be at least partially chalked up to her parent(s). This is all on Lesson Girl.

EDIT: Also, not to be a jerk but I would question taking on an unemployed person as anything that could be read by outsiders as a client. She can’t pay. Is she job hunting or just kinda mooching off her BF? Is she enrolled in any form of higher education/trade school or loafing around? Her BF might be nice but if she’s just clinging on, she will wear out her welcome eventually with him.

And I get job hunting isn’t easy, I had a tough time just finding dead-end retail type jobs through most of my college years but if you’re not in school in a way where you have to be physically present in a classroom, your schedule is a lot more open-ended. I was doing sometimes up to 39 hours a week at Walmart while taking online classes.

[anon15718925]

@CHT

as I just want it to be a NO. but a nice no.

Just. Say. No.

There’s no way to reason this out that won’t potentially bite you, past outright deciding you aren’t taking any new boarders and using that as your excuse and that ties you to not taking any boarders for the duration of time this young adult 18-20 something woman is at your barn.

Again: she is tangled in a situation at a previous barn over non-payment to the point she is losing a horse over it and you yourself have said as much. That is not behavior that behooves a responsible, mature adult which she is now presumed to be by society since she is a young adult, presumably over 18, with all the rights that entails. If, somehow, the nonpayment situation can still be pinned on her mother, that is still her problem with her mother and she needs to be an adult, pay her own way in her hobbies.

[hoopoe]

@CHT

I am going to take a slightly different look.

She said she is “thinking about” this horse. Is she looking at you for a reaction? I suspect if you said yes to the boarding, she would know she is “IN” ( happy dance)

Your saying NO might set her back, hopefully to reality. .

You dont have to justify your reason. If she asks, be honest about her past behavior ( which she needs to learn from) You can decide if you want to be honest about the “up in the air” prospect for your future business plan.

BUT you have to be honest with yourself. You have gone through a lot of struggle in the past months. Is this another thing that is chipping away at your career choice. Does turning down a client make you feel like your are becoming less? Is this why you are struggling?

Are you putting yourself first? Focus on this. Life is about yourself first and protecting and supporting yourself while you are on this journey.

Dont take on the burden of helping her beyond perhaps teaching her at her new barn as a coach. You are not a life coach, you are not a financial advisor. You are not a boarding and sales agent

My best wishes to you. Here you have been very open and sharing with your struggles and I know this must be a very challenging time. You are being strong in working through these situations. {{Keep going.}}

[FjordBCRF]

@hoopoe

If she asks, be honest about her past behavior ( which she needs to learn from)

I think this is worth highlighting. Having a little experience with mentoring young adults, if you really want to help them, you have to be able to have those hard and honest conversations with them. Dodging them or sugar coating them is only enabling that person. If you don’t have a relationship with her that you can have a conversation like that, then I would just keep it professional.

Editing to add - Not everything can or should be “nice” but there are productive ways they can be addressed. Tough love and hard conversations are aptly named; they are hard for both parties but can be extremely valuable.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Again, I don’t think you have an obligation to do this, but the kindest thing to do as a friend is to sit her down and say, “I’ve known you for a long time and I’ve seen this pattern in your life.” Then tell her what you have seen here–that she’s had a hard childhood, but she needs to get in a better financial and emotional place before getting a horse.

I personally wish some people would do this with me, sometimes!

Again, it’s not your responsibility to do this. But even if you don’t seem to be getting through to her now, I can guarantee in time she will think back to your conversation and realize you were right. I’m assuming she’s not some terrible person based on the kindness you’ve shown.

[FjordBCRF]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Again, I don’t think you have an obligation to do this, but the kindest thing to do as a friend is to sit her down and say, “I’ve known you for a long time and I’ve seen this pattern in your life.” Then tell her what you have seen here–that she’s had a hard childhood, but she needs to get in a better financial and emotional place before getting a horse.

I think this is good advice, but does still need to be tempered that BPD is a factor and it’s not just young adult irresponsibly that a good firm talking to will help.

As I understand it, BPD isn’t really ever cured and there are no quick fixes/medication in regards to treatment for it. The individual person really has to be committed to learning skills to manage and cope through what sounds like pretty intense therapy.

[ShenanAnna]

Why not just tell her (some of) what you’ve told us here? That you don’t think that she can afford a horse and that if she did get one, you wouldn’t be boarding it. Kind, if not “nice,” matter-of-fact and actually helpful.

She may look up to you and at least probably respects your opinion in horse matters, and the above info may well make a difference.

[CHT]

I don’t want her to think that her finances are my reason for not boarding for her, just in case there is an element I don’t know about, so I need to be clear that that ISN’T my reason for not wanting her to board with me.

@Old_Mac_Donald I like what you wrote, but I do see others points about not offering to help her find board. Easy enough to keep that part out and use the rest, so thank you.

@Impractical_Horsewoman It is not so much I have seen a pattern in her life, it is more that I just don’t want the stress right now. I am assuming she has grown up a lot since her last time boarding with me, but I am not ready to go through that again (potentially), and I do worry about .her finances. I also don’t know if I could (emotionally) put a lien on her horse if she didn’t pay for example. And I would probably over react if I saw any signs of our past issues.

Hopefully she feels ready to try one of my green mares soon, and she can start working with one of them and feel a long term place at my barn without needing a horse of her own.

[whitehouse1988]

I feel this is a very kind and honest post. If I was given this verbatim I would be appreciative and yet know the boundary is clear.

[anon15718925]

Well - I’d maybe say then to not get ahead of yourself too much. She’s brought up buying a horse once, from what you’ve said, if she brings it up again, maybe just frankly tell her you’re not sure she’s ready for that step (without going into details/reasons unless she starts inquiring as to why you don’t think she’s ready and you can kind of get a sense for any conclusions she might be en route to on her own for why she might not be ready. Assuming she’s not completely stupid, she might realize on her own, to some extent, that this isn’t feasible for her at this stage in her life even if she hasn’t openly admitted it to herself.) and see how she reacts.

[firecracker]

@CHT

I struggle with the idea that people should be abandoned because of a mental health condition, particularly as I think lesson student is in treatment (I know she was).

This made me want to clarify my earlier post… where I said that because of the BPD, I would absolutely say no and steer clear.

You are right: people should not be abandoned or treated poorly simply because of a mental health condition. Mental health is a thing that soooo many of us struggle with, and I’m sorry if my post made it sound like it was never a good idea to work with anybody with BPD. I reacted a bit strongly due to a really really horrible experience in my life, and of course, it’s not fair for me to assume that anybody with BPD will become a nightmare.

That said, I think the thing that gives me pause here is that this person does not appear to have the stability and resources to properly provide for a horse, yet for whatever reason it is something that she is considering… which shows seriously poor judgement and a lack of maturity. As we all know, horse ownership is a massive responsibility and a massive expense. It is a red flag to me that she would consider buying a horse while it sounds like she’s still working on figuring a lot of things out in her life. It’s another red flag that there have been past issues, that may or may not be repeated. It’s another red flag that there is drama involved with the previous horse lawsuit situation.

If a person with BPD had all their ducks in a row and wanted to buy a horse, I wouldn’t necessarily think that is something to steer clear of. It isn’t all about the BPD… in this situation it’s about the BPD combined with all the red flags that have been presented. I guess I should have worked all of that out in my brain before writing out my previous post on here, since I wasn’t really being fair or considerate toward mental illnesses as a whole.

I hope it all works out with minimal drama. Hopefully she’ll drop the buying a horse thing and continue with lessons and this will all be a non-issue. That is what I will keep my fingers crossed for!

[Jackie_Cochran]

My mother probably had BPD. Since in her mind it was obvious that the only entity that was more perfect than her was God, maybe.

My mother, give her a micro-meter, and all hell was guaranteed to break loose as soon as she thought she had me bamboozled.

She would run into being nice, very nice (diplomat’s wife, she knew how to act.) Then, without warning she would do everything she could to make me super suicidal. To her the ultimate sin was if I enjoyed my life at all.

Do not do this to yourself. I’m sorry she is sick in the head but in my experience BPD people can turn on a dime with absolutely no warning, and then everybody else in their life are doomed to a lifetime of misery while they suck you dry and then discard you because you are not “good enough” for them.

Sorry to be so blunt. You sound like a really nice person and I would be proud to know you in real life. Take care of yourself first.