Snowbird thats a really good USEFUL idea - I think like what Weatherford wanted to come out of this thread. Such a page would be an excellent resource!
S.
Weatherford, thank you for broaching this, as difficult as it may have been. I hope the young woman who posted her story on the drugs/alcohol thread will repost it here, as it may do her and many others much good.
IMO, abuse–or sometimes, misuse–of power is at the bottom of many of the issues discussed here.
It certainly is a problem- especially at the older Jr levels, where they’r ending high school, not sure of who we are, or what we want, extremely vulnerable. The old director of riding at Stonleigh Burnham (who I believe is now in Jail…) was convicted of having affairs with students- some who were only freshman. A huge amount of his riders “Fell to his charm” and were raped, etc by him. Its scarry to think- I’m going off to private school next year, adn you really are out from under your parents wing. And only so much faith and responsibility can be l;aid onto the hands of the trainer taking them down to Florida, or even out of state for the weekend. Its scarry, and our society certainly reflects why the fear exists.
The careers of the people who have been discovered were ended- as they should have been. But, being a teenager living in this world, the awareness level is so low, and things like that do happen- fear is created to such a high point, that no one wants to do anything.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horsluvr:
Just because you don’t face formal charges, it doesn’t mean ‘nothing’ happened. It means it was plea bargained out of the judicial system to protect most probably the minor children involved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh, or maybe it means nothing happened… or maybe there wasn’t enough evidence for investigators to be certain “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
If formal charges weren’t filed, as far as this board is concerned it didn’t happen and the topic is completely off-limits.
Watch your step, folks… stick to issues, not individuals or individual incidents, please.
[This message has been edited by Erin (edited 05-16-2000).]
BTW, I should add that not everyone who has been convicted of a sexual offense is a serial child molester. There are registered “sexual predators” who are definitely nasty people. Sexual offenses cover a wide range of crimes, as Portia’s story about her friend illustrates.
Weatherford… it was not her intention to have this thread be a witch hunt; it was to discuss a serious issue.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horsluvr:
I believe that the GUILTY party “ruined” their OWN life. They should have considered the reprocussions of their actions BEFORE they DID them. What is with society today?? We bend over backward to protect the guilty! What about the many victims and potential victims out there? The rate of recidivism for a crime of this nature is extremely high. Anytime you want to take your head out of the sand? It will NOT go away by ignoring it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you know that an 18-year-old boy who has consensual sex with his 17-year-old girlfriend could be charged and convicted as a sex offender? If that were you, would you want that information broadcast for the world to see, to be branded as a child molester, and to be told that it’s your own fault and that you should accept the repercussions of your actions??!
I find it incredible that people here are so anxious to condemn without the tiniest notion of what the facts are. Do you honestly think that if anyone here knew of an actual child molester wandering around horse shows looking for prey, that person would be “protected”? Well, sadly, the issue is not that clear. There are many shades of gray.
CAH – Thank you. I strongly believe that is the kind of useful information Weatherford wanted to have us share by starting this thread, as CTT, Laura, and others have also done. I applaud all of you for doing so, in addition to those who are seeking and evaluating facts before acting in so public a way. Flash is right about how fast information on the internet can spread, for good and for bad. It’s a new world, and we have to learn to live in it and be good neighbors on a global scale.
Oh and Flash, Fu Peg – I like it! Just so long as no one makes a mistake and starts calling him FUBAR. 
[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 05-18-2000).]
Oxer I’m am sorry to say that it’s not about winning! We’re not trying to win anything but to preserve the opportunity to intelligently discuss any idea.
Dialogs like this are an opportunity for some to vent their personal feelings which is therapeutic for them. Some are here and are learning to see things from another perspective than their own.
Civilization is a term that describes how we affect each other. If we never spoke or met people who were different and had different ideas how would we grow as civilized people.
All of life is an experience for learning. If you cannot tolerate the dialog then you have the option not to click on the topic. This topic was not forced on you, you chose to read it. Maybe, you too will learn something about how other people think.
What a deary world if we just shut down everything we didn’t agree with, or in which we were not interested. We can accomplish something if we make people aware
and the parents become more attentive to the experiences of their children. Is this not the problem being faced by the whole Internet? People trying to protect their children by creating a risk free environment rather than supervision and attention.
Woodbern - All I was saying is that it has become quite obvious that SOME members of this BB have NOT played by the rules, which Erin and Weatherford have requested. Instead, they have named names (those posts have been deleted, but were still seen by many), and made suggestions toward certain individuals.
Yes, it is a touchy subject, and Yes, I feel it is important to be discussed, as Snowbird has stated. However, I feel it should be discussed in a more open manner, (example, Weatherford and Snowbird’s posts).
Queen??? That’s pretty cool. Never thought of myself that way before. I actually thought my post was quite polite, and as I stated, I was only expressing my personal opinion.
The biggest danger with any kind of list is that it can lull people into a false sense of security, “So and So isn’t on the list so they are okay”. Parents have to be around. Pop in to lessons when you aren’t expected. Don’t drop off your child “for the day” - stop in, you can come up with a reason if you worry about offending someone (but no one should be offended). Come to the show and see what is going on. Talk to your child. Don’t depend on a magic list, there is no such thing.
A quick PRACTICAL story to warn parents of the realities: when my daughter was about 7, her school bus driver was arrested for abusing two other girls from another school. When I had “the talk” again with her and reminded her never to let strangers do or say whatever, her reply was, “but Mom, he’s not a stranger - he’s my driver.” What a blunt reminder of how careful and precise we must be!
One other situation: while stable employees in many cases are long-term and wonderful, in some others they are short-term and very transient, especially at shows. I have a very hard and very fast rule that my daughter will NEVER be in the barn alone without a parent or trainer or two other specified employees that I know and trust!
I certainly agree that sexual abuse is a significant problem of which we must be aware and vigilent, and that the people who engage in such abuse should be kept away from activities with children. However, I have a somewhat different perspective about accusing people publicly and “naming names,” more in line with what Rescuemom posted.
It is such an emotional issue that people tend to react without considering that the facts might not justify that response. There are too many unfounded accusations, like rescue mom mentioned. One town, in a kind of Salem Witch Hunt panic, charged dozens of people of molesting children, some of whom were convicted and spent years in prison, before it was revealed that the police investigator who instigated the hysteria was overzealous and convinced his own stepchild to lie, and the social worker who met with the children in fact unconsciously conditioned them and led them into saying incriminating things – as was apparent on the videotapes made of the sessions. The convictions have been overturned, but not before many lives were ruined.
I admit my perspective is tempered by my personal experience with one individual. I had a very good friend and colleague (not a horse person) who ended up charged and convicted for one incident in which he made the mistake of soliciting the wrong person in a bar. He was a closeted homosexual and was unable to reconcile his private life and sexuality with his career, and those pressures led him to make a single sad mistake, for which he paid dearly. A long story, but my friend ended up beaten up and his house set on fire. He was one of the finest people I have ever known, but if you only looked at what appeared in the public record, without knowing the facts behind it, you would not know that. He has since passed away, and his friends miss him terribly.
The bottom line, in my opinion, is that anyone who feels they are faced with such a situation should make sure they find out the underlying facts before trashing someone’s life publicly, where immeasurable harm can be done. Just make sure you know the facts and evaluate them, then act as conscience dictates.
I realize this is a very sensitive issue we are discussing here but it is very important. I know it’s not right to put the names of these people on a board but I do suggest that parents, kids, riders, etc do some seriously indepth researching on their trainers, grooms, etc. You can read my post in the drugs/alcohol column and although I never pressed charges, and just recently spoke out—if asked by a prospective client of his, or a current client, I will definitely share with them some of his downfalls. I always feared speaking out because of others not believing it and I realize that he wins that way. When things like this happen to you at a young age, it adversely effects your life for years. It completley consumes you, runs your life, makes your decisions, and that creep is walking around, searching for his next victim. Once I finally left that barn, all he did was spread horrible rumors about me, saying I was very sleezy, etc…all the while, he knew that I had never ‘been with’ another soul. I was so scared to speak out because I just figured no one would believe it. Some girl charging her trainer with these kind of accusations??? I just wish I could talk to each and every girl out there and warn them of this type of thing. The professional child molesters are very clever, they not only hurt you physically but emotionally and mentally. That’s why it’s so easy for them to get away with it. I don’t mean to stand up here and preach but I really want to bring it to the attention of others that this is not a one in a million type of story. I have a few friends whom I later found out went through similar incidences–who left the industry as a whole because they couldn’t deal with it any longer. I apologize if I have stepped on any toes or offended anyone, that has never been my intent. Thanks again for listening.
Just like the saying “Think globally, act locally” It’s true that sexual abuse is not limited to the horse world, but this is where we have the power to fight it. The more people that get involved here, the more power we have as a group. I understand why the AHSA might hesitate to get involved, and why it might not be the best idea to post name here, but something has to be done. I wonder if there’s a way to create sort of a PTA in the horse world, an organization of parents, trainers, and anyone else that wants to get involved to discuss and take action on these issues that might not fall under what the AHSA considers its jurisdiction. I dont know if thats possible, or if it would even do any good anyway - just popped into my head. (oh sorry - CTT I went back and reread your post and you mentioned something like this, maybe its something we should look into)
CTT, you make good points about the importance of acting quickly and reporting a sexual assault. I was raped over four years ago, and never reported it. Now there’s no way for me to do anything about it. I was ashamed, scared, and it was just plain easier to push it out of my head and pretend it never happened. I didnt tell anyone at all until about six months ago, and now here I am doing all this. I totally understand the mentality to keep it quiet, but believe me, just because you dont tell anyone and try to ignore it, its impossible to push it out of your mind. Sexual abuse of any kind is a horrible, terrible crime, and it will come back to haunt you if you dont deal with it. For the sake of others that might become victims its important to report it. I’m sure that there are people who think Im hypocritical for saying that because I didnt report it when it happened to me, but so be it - Its important.
Other than trying to get our stories published, I’m not sure what action we can take to fight this. I dont know much about the legal side of it. CTT and Weatherford we may have to have a brainstorming session. The more people get involved, the more that can be done.
[This message has been edited by laura (edited 05-17-2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
[B] Yes, it’s public knowledge, and I’m not going to delete it if someone posts it. I just think people should know all of the details before broadcasting information like that to thousands of people, and be sure that what they’re doing is necessary.
. The information is out there for other people to find if they want it.
But I don’t need to know… it doesn’t affect me, nor does it affect 95% of the people here. If you want my honest opinion, I think the desire to share names has a lot to do with the gossipy nature of the horse world, as seen by the somewhat perverted “You think you have problems” thread I closed yesterday.
If someone has publicly documented information they think is important to share, I won’t stop them. But I hope they’ll think long and hard about what they’re doing before they post. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Two things here. 1.it was deleted by Weatherford. and 2. I can’t believe the seceond part of this quote “that it doesn’t affect me” statement I am shocked at what I found out this morning but more shocked that many others knew this and now that it comes out on a thread they started it gets deleted.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goodmudder:
[B]… I implore you to shut down and delete this topic as long as it contains clearly stated or implied personal attacks. No good can come of it.
I would guess that 99% of us have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of alleged OR “legally factual” incidents, and have no right to comment on them without a thought as to the tragic implications for certain individuals. I don’t care if it’s legal or not - it is WRONG.
Shut it down. What ever happened to "he who casts the first stone . . . "
Shut it down.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have been watching this thread all along. There have been several informative posts about the legal system. But I agree with the above statement. So before this thread is closed, let me add the following -
Professionally, I have worked MANY years with young/teenage children (boys and girls) who have been victimized many ways. Parents, please listen to the following tips…
- This issue transcends all sports and opportunities where there are adults & children. Offenders can be the local baseball coach, teacher, clergy, next door neighbor, family member. There are signs to watch out for - EDUCATE yourselves!!
- I have seen the effects of adults WRONGLY accused by young people and how it can destroy their careers and families.
- Parents…talk to your kids!!!Know what they are doing. Who are they talking to online? Who are their friends? Don’t drop them off at a sporting activity (or barn) for HOURS at a time unless YOU are completely comfortable.
- Kids…there is always someone out there that cares and WILL help. If you are in a situation and want help, find an adult whom you trust and PLEASE talk to them.
Enough is enough. I too think this topic has crossed the line from sharing information to gossiping about people.
[This message has been edited by CAH (edited 05-18-2000).]
Go back and read my post from what the Violence Against Women Office recommends for sports organizations to do. Check out the web site. Distribution of educational material at shows? Maybe an educational insert in prize lists? Could we get our top riders to endorse a program of some sort and act as spokespeople? This doesnt have to be limited to just sexual abuse, it could encompass drug abuse and eating disorders too? How would this be organized? Would it be taking on too much to try to do this nationally? We need to get ideas rolling here. There are alot of other groups that have tackled similar issues in the past and there is info and ideas out there-just need to do a little digging.
Now, the disciplinary policies part of it is a bit trickier and I really hesitate to bring up that topic here-I dont want to see this thread closed! I’m going to do some research into what other sports organizations have for policies on this - and please tread VERY CAREFULLY because as Erin said there are many shades of grey!
CTT, you have great ideas, and I am definitely in. Lets get together and accomplish something, any other takers?
Good point snowbird. Where would any of be with out these boards. I half to admit but in the past fue months I have become a diffrent person. Im stronger and not as timid as I use to. I chalenge myself now and express myself without limits. I have noticed a diffrence in the way i write and my style in which I write. all though my spelling isn’t better i have become more alert and openminded. I fee there are many lessons that don’t pretain exactly to this thread that we have learnd. Its not the actual content but its the limit and tolerence on issues. I can see so many lessons in this thread that i have benafited from. Its not just the exact stories but its the chalenge and questions that arise.
There is no reason to delete this thread as long as the topic is discussed sensibly. Weatherford gave a great example with her copy of a published article. Instead of pointing fingers and passing along rumors with no documented basis, why don’t we discuss how to educate our children about sexual abuse and how we can BEST PREVENT our children from having to deal with that situation in the first place.
- don’t let your children go overnight without a PROPER chaperone (a parent!)
-get together with several other parents from the barn and try to work out a schedule where one of you can be at the barn, or drop in, when the children are there for long periods of time. Trainers are NOT BABYSITTERS, and you can’t expect that they will be nearby if your child should get hurt at the barn.
-we have become too trusting. Year ago, it would have been scandalous to have a young lady left unsupervised with a man, married or not.
